Current and New Feature Discussion

Got a great idea for HoA or wish to discuss a current feature? Let us know about it!

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Current and New Feature Discussion

Postby Roots » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:35 am

I'd like this thread to be the first dedicated to discussing current and prospective features for HoA. We'd like as much public opinion about the features of the game that we can get because we are making this game so others can enjoy it, not just ourselves. First a listing of the current features that have been planned to be implemented:
    Battle System and Strategy

    - Multiple Attack Point System (MAPS)
    - Battle wear
    - Standard ATB with a twist
    - Leveling up and Enemy Strength
    - Character swapping

    Enhanced Storyline

    - Character Emotion Icons
    - High-quality graphical inserts
    - Narrative dialogue

    Removing Tedious and Useless Aspects of RPGs

    - Hidden item Indicators
    - New dialogue indicators

    Other features

    - Modular development


Which of these features do you like or are excited about? More importantly, which features do you dislike or have doubts about? What features are you confused about or would like a deeper explanation?


With having said that, I have a couple new ideas I'd like to throw down. I'd value both staff and public opinion on them :)


1) Melee Attack Types (MAT)

Instead of just having one 'Attack' command, I thought that there could be several types of melee attack that could be selected similar to how you select a spell from your magic repository. Furthermore, not all these melee attacks are automatically known. As a character gains experience, every so often he or she will gain a new melee attack type. In addition, the MATs tie into the MAPS system by having certain character/enemy attack points weak or resistant to only specific types of melee attacks, rather than just a generic attack. I think this will make the characters that are more physical based and less magical based more versatile. Example MAT names for a sword-wielding character might be: slice, slash, cut, stab, puncture, etc. I'm not sure how many MATs a typical character would have, but I'd reckon at least five.

I feel pretty good about this idea, and I think it has a chance of succeeding. The only problems I see with it are if we have a sword wielder, an axe wielder, and a whip wielder and each have their own distinct 5 melee attacks, it would be difficult to always have an appropriate weakness that can be exploited on an enemy (which would make MAPS crap). As an alternative, maybe we can have MATs be more generic like: light (basic attack), cripple (attack that is more effective at reducing enemy stats), medium, puncture (effective against strong armor), and heavy attacks. Additionally, enemies/allies may have weaknesses to certain weapon types (swords, axes, etc). Phew, that was a long explanation, I hope I made it clear :D


2) Concurrent Attack Limitations (CAL) (<= yes, I like acronyms :D )

This is an idea I'm a little iffy on, but I thought I'd share it nonetheless. The foundation behind this idea is strength balance. Though we are going to try and make the game as balanced as we can so characters don't become god-like powerful, chances are someone will find a strategy to get around it. (I'm recalling FFVII and the Knights of the Round + W-Summon materia combo right now...) The idea is this: after a character does attack X, depending on how powerful the attack was, we don't let that character execute attack X again for a certain number of turns. For light class attacks, we don't have this limit at all.

I don't know if people would like this feature or not, but I am however thinking that we can use this feature to completely replace the need for MP. Honestly, I never liked the idea of MP. We can also design the system so that when a battle ends, some of the powerful attacks that were used during that battle will still be unavailabe at the start of a new battle. Regeneration of specific attacks may or may not take place by walking around in the map/dungeon, I'm not sure yet. What do you think, could I have just invented a revolutionary new system that makes MP a thing of the past? Haha, probably not, but give me your opinions anyway :D

EDIT: A clarifiaction on the CAL system. I meant for this system to be applicable not only to melle attacks, but also magic attacks (and skills if we include those in the game).
Last edited by Roots on Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Biohazard
Former Staff
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:03 pm
Contact:

Postby Biohazard » Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:56 pm

I have an new idea instead of your MAT system :)

It's about close combatants having SKILLS. For example a swordsman starts with 3 skills, all at level 0, it could look like this.

<Attack lv 0> Triple Slash - <name> dashes to the enemy and delivers 3 fast blows. The hit area of the blows is randomly decided and they can miss.

<Defense lv 0> Counter - <name> will try to anticipate the enemy attack and counter it with an attack on his own. It hits the weapon arm of the enemy.

<Support lv 0> Warcry - <name> throws a fearful battlecry at the enemies, stunning them for a few seconds.

Okay, these skills belong to 3 categories, Attack skills, defend skills and support skills.
If one skill is used often enough the level of that skill raises, for example if one user likes to use Triple Slash his Attack level will raise to level 1 after a while.

With reaching attack skill level 1 he learns a new combat skill.
<Attack lv 1> Bash - <name> builds up strenght and delivers a very strong attack on a specific body part of the enemy. Good for crippling, can miss.

And so forth and so forth. HOWEVER i think it would be good to insert limitations, for example a level 10 attack cant reach level 10 defense ( level 10 is maximum... )
Maybe it would be godd to set a formular, like
Atk + Def < 10

That means that atk skills and defense skills combined cant exceed 10
So you could: Specialise on atk skills ( atk skill 10, def skill 0 ) or specialise on def skills ( atk skill 0, def skill 10 )
And of course mix your own combination ( atk skill 3, def skill 7 ) ..you get the idea :)

I'm not too sure about how to insert support in that formular, maybe make a 4th category or something to even it out, dunno...

And yeah, the higher the level of atk or def or sup the better / stronger are the skills...

To prevent overuse of the skills i would say the character needs a brief amount of time to charge it, if hit while charging his action bar will decrease to half full and the skill is not executed. After the execution the char is exhaustet for some time and his ATB bar will either charge slower, or just wont charge for a few seconds.

I'm not too sure if it is necessary, but if there are balance problems you could also make him suffer 200% damage in one or in both of the charging phases.

And another thing possible would be combination skills, for example a skill that needs atk 3, def 1 and sup 5 or something like that..

And i think it would be good if they take quite some time to level, maybe do level limitations too or something, but the level 10 skills should be extremly powerful because it also means to let go of all the skills of another tree..
User avatar
Biohazard
Former Staff
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:03 pm
Contact:

Postby Biohazard » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:24 pm

And another system for the CAL system =)

How about giving magical users a fixed amount of 100% Magical Power at the beginning of each battle.
Spellcasting consumes this magical power, the amount of magical power consumed varies with the character level.
For example:

Light Mage lv 1
- Light Cure - 30% Consumption

---

Light Mage lv 25
- Light Cure - 12% Consumption
- Medium Cure - 30% Consumption
- Haste - 25% Consumption
- Heavy Cure - 90% Consumption

---

Light Mage lv 50
- Light Cure - 7% Consumption
- Medium Cure - 20% Consumption
- Haste - 25% Consumption
- Heavy Cure - 45% consumption
- Holy Shield - 80% Consumption


The idea is that you can always decide on many "small" spells, or one "kickass" spell. While the Heavy Cure on level 25 would probably heal one character to maximum HP it will balance out because it will drain nearly all magical power of the user, while on level 50 the heavy cure would only heal about half HP, it also drains less Magical Power.
The spells use in usefulness, and thus loose in Magical Powers too, lets say because the caster becomes better and the spell is easier for him to cast.
Haste on the other site drains 25% Magical Power on both - level 25 and level 50. Why? Because it doesnt loose in usefulness. It will always cost the same amount of Magical Power.

Same could go for an attack mage.
The enemies get stronger, thus the attack magic looses in useful ness, thus for balancing reasons they consume less Magical Power than one of the "kickass" spells would consume.

If you "buy" spells for your characters it could happen that a spell isnt castable because the Magical Power needed exceeds 100% that means you have to wait till it becomes under 100% and thus useable.

Additionally we could introduce a meditade or gather thoughts option to recover this power while in battle, however going into that stance makes the mage extremly vunerable and it recovers very slow ( like ... 300% damage and 10% recovery per a turn )
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:25 pm

I like the alternative to the MAT system you proposed. Maybe even more so than my own idea. :twitch: Here are my opinions on it:

What I like

- The general idea of having attack skills.

- I like how there are three different types. I like the description of triple slash, counter, and warcry.

- The recharge time between skills and the limitations that prevent the abuse of the system.

What I dislike

- Having specific levels for the skills. Personally, I hate having a bunch of numbers in my head about the different levels and abilities I currently have (Diablo 2). I would prefer if the skill strength/effectiveness was just based on the character's XP level and attributes.

- The whole attack + defense skill lvls < 10. What if the player needs to uses attack skills early in the game and decides later he/she wants to develop their defense skills, but can't because attack levels are maxed out? If I was playing the game, I'd be annoyed at that point.

What I'm indifferent about

- The combo skills. It seems a little overkill to me.

- Skill charge time. I mean think about it. What do they need to do to prepare? Stare the enemy down for 10 seconds before dealing it a triple slash? I think setting a limitation on the frequency the skill can be used would achieve a better result.


In summary, its definitely a good idea, but I think it will need to be a little more simple (both for the players to understand and for us to program) before we decide to implement it.



Dangit I had something else to say and now I forgot. I'll edit my post when I remember :P

EDIT: Ok I recalled what I was thinking about. :) I've actually had this on my mind since the beginning of the project, but I didn't mention it because it's not really a 'feature' per say. The idea is this: no save points Now before you scream "WTF HE'S CRAZY!!!" hear me out.

Death has gotten more and more underrated by many well-known RPGs (Final Fantasy) since the days of the NES. Do any of you remember playing the early Dragon Warrior games and you were actually fearful of dying in a certain dungeon because the last time you were able to save was 30 minutes ago? I do. And now I play a game like FFX where they throw like 3 save points in every area, and make it REALLY obvious when a boss is coming up. In these games its like "Oh I died, hah who cares! I saved 2 minutes ago and I 'll just reload my game from there!". No, death should mean agony over the loss of something.

Now there maybe a few exceptions granted if we have some uber-huge dungeon, but I would like to keep save points to a minimum. So then, what happens in HoA if you die? I want the consequences to be signifcant, but not too severe that the player feels he lost so much it would be better to just reload the game from his last save, and then he curses at the game for wasting his time. I'm not sure what exactly characters would lose yet, but I'm thinking that they should lose both experience and gold. Maybe we'll reduce their cash by about 20-40% or so and we'll lower their XP by the difference of the characters current level and the XP needed for the next level. (This however won't reduce a characters XP level). Ex: If a character dies on level 20 who has an XP level of 1200 and the XP required to reach levels 20 and 21 are 1000 and 1500 respectively, the character's new XP will be (1200 - (1500 - 1000)) = 700.

I want some opinions on this one, because I know I might not have a lot of people approve of this idea like some of my others. Just proves that you new-age RPGs are too soft! :devil:
Last edited by Roots on Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:32 pm

Biohazard wrote:And another system for the CAL system =)


You like to come up with alternatives to my ideas don't you? :D That's ok, its a good thing really.


Frankly, I don't see how this system is much different from the CAL system (which includes magic attacks). The only major difference I can see is that instead of having a limit of individual attacks, there exists a single limit for all attacks. In all honestly though, once again I think your idea is better :twitch: Are you trying to outstage me Biohazard? :) I think that every character should have at least a couple attacks that consume 0% though (obviously they would be very weak attacks). It would be annoying if a character just had to sit there and do nothing.


While we are on the topic of magic/CAL/whatever, let me through out a few other small ideas that I have regarding this.

1) Mages only cast magic, they do not have melee attacks. Something I've constantly disliked about some RPGs is that with an MP limit, you want to conserve your magic for when you really need it so you'd just have your weakling little mages attack and do insignificant damage.

2) The mage 'weapons' amplify their casting abilities. So lets say you buy a fire rod for your lvl 5 mage. Then their general damage from magic attacks would increase, and their fire magic damage would increase greatly.

3) I really like your idea of a 'meditate' or concentraion option for increasing recover rate Biohazard. I think a similar option should exist for warriors who have strained themselves too hard, and they can be allowed to 'rest' or recover.

4) A 'protect ally' ability. I talked about this with someone else before (maybe it was Phil), but we could add a command which would let warriors protect team members from harm. This would be really good to use when you have a vulnerable mage who is meditating and you don't want them to get ripped apart by the enemy.

5) Learning magic and skills. I haven't given too much thought into how mages learn spells, but originally I thought of just having them learn new spells as they advance in XP levels (like warriors do with their skills). Alternatively, maybe we could purchase books in the shop (magic books and skill books) that are required to have in your inventory so that mages/warrirors learn these skills. Either they'd learn new skills from these books at certain absolute XP levels, or we could have them learn the skills using relative XP levels. What I mean by relative is: say the character purchases the book at level 5. He must gain 3 levels to learn the first skill (so he must be at lvl 8), 5 for the second skill, etc. So the level at which they learn the skill is determined by what XP level they were at when they bought the book. I think it sounds like a reasonable idea, what do you guys think? (On a side note, do you think we should let the player know what XP levels they will learn certain skills, or leave it as a surprise and just show them the available skills to learn from the books, but not when they will be mastered?). I'm really starting to like this skill/magic book idea now! :D
Last edited by Roots on Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Biohazard
Former Staff
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:03 pm
Contact:

Postby Biohazard » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:17 pm

Death has gotten more and more underrated by many well-known RPGs (Final Fantasy) since the days of the NES. Do any of you remember playing the early Dragon Warrior games and you were actually fearful of dying in a certain dungeon because the last time you were able to save was 30 minutes ago? I do. And now I play a game like FFX where they throw like 3 save points in every area, and make it REALLY obvious when a boss is coming up. In these games its like "Oh I died, hah who cares! I saved 2 minutes ago and I 'll just reload my game from there!". No, death should mean agony over the loss of something.

Now there maybe a few exceptions granted if we have some uber-huge dungeon, but I would like to keep save points to a minimum. So then, what happens in HoA if you die? I want the consequences to be signifcant, but not too severe that the player feels he lost so much it would be better to just reload the game from his last save, and then he curses at the game for wasting his time. I'm not sure what exactly characters would lose yet, but I'm thinking that they should lose both experience and gold. Maybe we'll reduce their cash by about 20-40% or so and we'll lower their XP by the difference of the characters current level and the XP needed for the next level. (This however won't reduce a characters XP level). Ex: If a character dies on level 20 who has an XP level of 1200 and the XP required to reach levels 20 and 21 are 1000 and 1500 respectively, the character's new XP will be (1200 - (1500 - 1000)) = 700.

I want some opinions on this one, because I know I might not have a lot of people approve of this idea like some of my others. Just proves that you new-age RPGs are too soft!


So if you die you get a death penality and respawn at the last save point? Hmm ... i would say a EXP substraction is enough, well, it depends how hard it is to earn money...but i think 20%-40% is too much... well, at last if there is no bank where you can store money...but i think this idea is good ^_^

- Having specific levels for the skills. Personally, I hate having a bunch of numbers in my head about the different levels and abilities I currently have (Diablo 2). I would prefer if the skill strength/effectiveness was just based on the character's XP level and attributes.

- The whole attack + defense skill lvls < 10. What if the player needs to uses attack skills early in the game and decides later he/she wants to develop their defense skills, but can't because attack levels are maxed out? If I was playing the game, I'd be annoyed at that point.


Well, i would like to customize my characters quite a bit, and i think leveling up the categories to gain more skills isnt that bad, if anyone played Xenogears - my system is a bit smiliar to that one. ( Deathblows )

I just would hardly dislike it to see a char being superb in defense and superb in attack at the same time, so i think it actually isnt that bad .. and *hint* *hint* how about an NPC to reset the skillevels or lower missskilled skillevels? ^_^

Of course the skills depend on the char level and strenght values and stuff... and i do not mean that the learnd skills improve with the attack level, just that you learn a new , stronger attack when the attack skill level rises ... =)

- The combo skills. It seems a little overkill to me.

- Skill charge time. I mean think about it. What do they need to do to prepare? Stare the enemy down for 10 seconds before dealing it a triple slash? I think setting a limitation on the frequency the skill can be used would achieve a better result.


Well, the combo skill was just an example, and if it has a high miss-ratio it wouldnt be that good... and it could be put on a later position for attack skills....

The skill charge time is to prevent over use and add even more tactical deepness.. i dislike games that go like "battle starts - user uses kickass skill - battle ends" and i also dislike games that are like "battle starts - user uses hard slash - user uses hard slash - user uses hard slash" I dislike it if the same skill is just used over and over ... its like in the anime - its a great technique , but it has its downsides too. The charge time isnt necessary, but i thought it woudl be useful for balancing... because i thought of the skills of something strong, not just some normal attack, thats what the attack button is for :)

And yeah limitation .. well ... i think it would work out fine if the cooldown time is raised the more you use skills. For example you could just take the cooldown time for each skill * 1,0 ( first use ) on the second use its * 1,5 , then its *2,0 so, the more you use skills the longer your character needs to recover from it...

You like to come up with alternatives to my ideas don't you? That's ok, its a good thing really.

:roll: Wellll .. not really, its just .. when i read your ideas some smiliar ideas pop into my head and i start thinking about it some more, it hasnt anything to do with alternating your ideas ... :)

Frankly, I don't see how this system is much different from the CAL system (which includes magic attacks). The only major difference I can see is that instead of having a limit of individual attacks, there exists a single limit for all attacks. In all honestly though, once again I think your idea is better Are you trying to outstage me Biohazard? I think that every character should have at least a couple attacks that consume 0% though (obviously they would be very weak attacks). It would be annoying if a character just had to sit there and do nothing.


I think this system would be only for magic users, melee's dont need magical power or a power bar, since they have their skills... =)

Yes, those 0% attacks might be good. Since you dont want mages to be able to run up and hit stuff it might be useful to add some weak "innate" spells ... maybe he can get some more spells to "innate" status after leveling ( for example that the light cure spell is innate for a level 50 healer/white mage )


2) The mage 'weapons' amplify their casting abilities. So lets say you buy a fire rod for your lvl 5 mage. Then their general damage from magic attacks would increase, and their fire magic damage would increase greatly.


Great idea! Has my support ... :)

3) I really like your idea of a 'meditate' or concentraion option for increasing recover rate Biohazard. I think a similar option should exist for warriors who have strained themselves too hard, and they can be allowed to 'rest' or recover.


Hmm.. i dont know about warriors to use it, because there are items to recover health as well as spells :) But it is not a bad idea of course, i just dont know if it is necessary... ^^

4) A 'protect ally' ability. I talked about this with someone else before (maybe it was Phil), but we could add a command which would let warriors protect team members from harm. This would be really good to use when you have a vulnerable mage who is meditating and you don't want them to get ripped apart by the enemy.


Be careful with this one, this may be a good level 0 defense skill ;) But it should have a chance to fail, else it will get too easy to recover magical power ;)

5) Learning magic and skills. I haven't given too much thought into how mages learn spells, but originally I thought of just having them learn new spells as they advance in XP levels (like warriors do with their skills). Alternatively, maybe we could purchase books in the shop (magic books and skill books) that are required to have in your inventory so that mages/warrirors learn these skills. Either they'd learn new skills from these books at certain absolute XP levels, or we could have them learn the skills using relative XP levels. What I mean by relative is: say the character purchases the book at level 5. He must gain 3 levels to learn the first skill (so he must be at lvl 8), 5 for the second skill, etc. So the level at which they learn the skill is determined by what XP level they were at when they bought the book. I think it sounds like a reasonable idea, what do you guys think? (On a side note, do you think we should let the player know what XP levels they will learn certain skills, or leave it as a surprise and just show them the available skills to learn from the books, but not when they will be mastered?). I'm really starting to like this skill/magic book idea now!


Hum.. i dont think its too good with relative levels *shrugs* .. i think it will be too much like... "crap, i forgot to buy xxx book and now i need hours to get the skills T_T" ... i think warriors / fighters should learn the skills by themselfes... however for mages... hmmm... how about Sealed books? Spells not related to the level of the character, rather to the mind power / int of the books, for example a book contains a spell and to learn the spell you need an high enough intelligence / willpower / mental strenght to open the seal or read the content ? ...that means you buy the book, and use it on your mage. If he has an high enough power he will learn the spell and the book will be wasted.... and yeah, i think it should show the amount of int needed.... of course you could just switch int with lvl =)
User avatar
gorzuate
Developer
Posts: 2575
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:03 am
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Contact:

Postby gorzuate » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:17 am

I'm gonna be here forever typing out this response, you guys need to slow down to like one idea per day or something :D

Aaaa! Too many acronyms! I can't remember what's what anymore what with MAT and CAL, MAPS, ATB, MP, HP, QWERTY... yikes! It's bad enough trying to remember what they stand for let alone what they actually do.

Seems like Roots wants the game to do a lot if not all of the character development/leveling up and such whereas biohazard would like the characters to be more customizable, am I right? Not quite sure where I stand on this...on the one hand I know that if the characters are too customizable, then players (such as myself :)) spend way too much time customizing them and not enough time actually playing the game. But on the other hand, it could make gameplay more interesting (:shock: what am I talking about??? That might be a lot to handle having different game twists depending on the current state of the character! Scratch that idea, I don't want to program that :!:) Well my point is customization should be somewhere in between, not too extreme on any side.

Let's see, what else...oh yeah, before I forget. The thing about hidden items where a '?' pops up over your head if you're near an item...uh, how close to the item do you have to be? I mean, I wouldn't want to read a FAQ saying there's a hidden item in a certain room, only to not be able to find it because no matter how you walk/travel across the room you just can't seem to find it. I think some button to press when you enter area pointing out all the objects of interest would be good. Need to give the players a break now and then, don't we?



And now, the main event begins!

Roots wrote:
What I like

- The general idea of having attack skills.

- I like how there are three different types. I like the description of triple slash, counter, and warcry.

- The recharge time between skills and the limitations that prevent the abuse of the system.



I like everything about this. Makes a lot of sense, I like the [attack] skills, not sure I quite understood Roots' original MAT system anyway...

Roots wrote:
What I dislike

- Having specific levels for the skills. Personally, I hate having a bunch of numbers in my head about the different levels and abilities I currently have (Diablo 2). I would prefer if the skill strength/effectiveness was just based on the character's XP level and attributes.

- The whole attack + defense skill lvls < 10. What if the player needs to uses attack skills early in the game and decides later he/she wants to develop their defense skills, but can't because attack levels are maxed out? If I was playing the game, I'd be annoyed at that point.



Definitely a good point about the attack levels maxing out unintentionally. Annoying games SUCK! But easily fixable I'm sure.

Roots wrote:
What I'm indifferent about

- The combo skills. It seems a little overkill to me.

- Skill charge time. I mean think about it. What do they need to do to prepare? Stare the enemy down for 10 seconds before dealing it a triple slash? I think setting a limitation on the frequency the skill can be used would achieve a better result.



Oh come on! Combos are badass! When you can pull one off they're absolutely stunning (er...for the most part) in terms of visual coolness and attack power. I think combos are a must!

Roots wrote:
EDIT: Ok I recalled what I was thinking about. :) I've actually had this on my mind since the beginning of the project, but I didn't mention it because it's not really a 'feature' per say. The idea is this: no save points Now before you scream "WTF HE'S CRAZY!!!" hear me out.



uh...er... WTF HE'S CRAZY!!! no save points :?: :shock: :!:
I'll agree that the "Game Over" screen is very unfamiliar to me because of infinite save points, so your point about no save points does have a point. Oh yeah! That was sly! :cool: Uh anyway, so you want to make this game impossible? What with all the leveling up limitations, magic limits, not encountering any weaklings... Ok, now for some thoughts. Some games are setup where it costs you money and/or XP to respawn when you die (but some of those allow you to save when you want, so it kind of defeats the purpose...) We could set up some system where save points are spread out more than the average RPG, but not too excessive (although now that I think about it if they are excessive we could tote it as a feature...you know, for people who think they don't need save points) and then we could also add in a cost to respawn, or choose a location to respawn with the closer it being to where you died the more expensive it would be.



On to the fascinating topic of magic! Seems like Roots doesn't like MP...

Roots wrote:
1) Mages only cast magic, they do not have melee attacks. Something I've constantly disliked about some RPGs is that with an MP limit, you want to conserve your magic for when you really need it so you'd just have your weakling little mages attack and do insignificant damage.



What did you mean by this? Will mages in HoA not have melee attacks, or will they? Depends on how we implement magic in the first place I guess. If a mage can't run out of magic, he doesn't really need melee attacks. But if he can, then without melee he'd be vulnerable. Assuming he doesn't have any companions.

Roots wrote:
2) The mage 'weapons' amplify their casting abilities. So lets say you buy a fire rod for your lvl 5 mage. Then their general damage from magic attacks would increase, and their fire magic damage would increase greatly.



A bloody bloomin' idea!

Roots wrote:
3) I really like your idea of a 'meditate' or concentraion option for increasing recover rate Biohazard. I think a similar option should exist for warriors who have strained themselves too hard, and they can be allowed to 'rest' or recover.

5) Learning magic and skills. I haven't given too much thought into how mages learn spells, but originally I thought of just having them learn new spells as they advance in XP levels (like warriors do with their skills). Alternatively, maybe we could purchase books in the shop (magic books and skill books) that are required to have in your inventory so that mages/warrirors learn these skills. Either they'd learn new skills from these books at certain absolute XP levels, or we could have them learn the skills using relative XP levels. [/b]


Like, how totally tubular, dudes! In Neverwinter Nights they called it resting. They did away with MP in an innovative way... This goes for mages/sorcerors/wizards cuz I never did play it as a fighter/knight/whatever (but I'm sure it works similarly). One item a wizard starts off with is a spell book which comes with four basic spells. As a wizard purchases new spells, finds spells, or gets new ones when leveling up, he puts the spells into his spellbook. When he wants to use a spell/item/weapon he drags it to a slot on the screen toolbar (only so many slots available). For example, he could have a hundred spells in his spellbook, but only have 10-15 in available slots. When it comes time to using a spell, he could use those spells present only in the slots, and only if they had been charged. How do you charge them? By resting. Which takes a while, and you can't rest with enemies nearby. So usually I'd rest before going into battle, so I'd have everything charged up, and then after the battle I'd rest again. This also restored your HP, so resting made it very easy to stay alive and rack up potions too (who needs potions when you can rest?).

Roots wrote:
4) A 'protect ally' ability. I talked about this with someone else before (maybe it was Phil), but we could add a command which would let warriors protect team members from harm. This would be really good to use when you have a vulnerable mage who is meditating and you don't want them to get ripped apart by the enemy.



Yes yes, a good idea too. But depends on whether everyone in your party rests/meditates as the same time as you or not.

Biohazard wrote:
I just would hardly dislike it to see a char being superb in defense and superb in attack at the same time, so i think it actually isnt that bad .. and *hint* *hint* how about an NPC to reset the skillevels or lower missskilled skillevels? ^_^



The NPC thing is a good idea, although presumably the only time you may want to use it is if you screwed up somehow. But then you could always reload a saved game.

Biohazard wrote:
The skill charge time is to prevent over use and add even more tactical deepness.. i dislike games that go like "battle starts - user uses kickass skill - battle ends" and i also dislike games that are like "battle starts - user uses hard slash - user uses hard slash - user uses hard slash" I dislike it if the same skill is just used over and over ... its like in the anime - its a great technique , but it has its downsides too. The charge time isnt necessary, but i thought it woudl be useful for balancing... because i thought of the skills of something strong, not just some normal attack, thats what the attack button is for :)

And yeah limitation .. well ... i think it would work out fine if the cooldown time is raised the more you use skills. For example you could just take the cooldown time for each skill * 1,0 ( first use ) on the second use its * 1,5 , then its *2,0 so, the more you use skills the longer your character needs to recover from it...



I really like the skills being something strong, not just some normal attack, and the cooldown idea is cool I think.

Man, long post. I could separate it into 20 gagillion posts and get my count up. Hmm...
Last edited by gorzuate on Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

This thread has too many ideas

Postby Roots » Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:25 pm

Alright, instead of trying to quote multiple people and adding yet another insanely long post to this thread, I want to summarize what we've covered so far and try to organize our ideas a little (yes, I know I'm a neat freak).


TOPIC 1 - Warrior Skills

a) MAT System: Multiple Attack Types. Instead of just selecting 'Attack', you could select 'Slash', 'Stab', 'Cripple', etc.

b) Skill System: 3 types of melee skills: attack, defense, and support. Skills require time to charge before they can be used. Skills have a max level they may reach.

c) Cool-down time: the more often you use a skill in battle, the longer it takes to recover from it.

d) Rest ability: warriors who are physically exhausted can rest to recover their stamina (so they can use powerful attacks again). Similar to the concentration and magic power idea for spellcasters.

e) Skill books: read spell books in 2c. Exactly the same but for warriors.

f) Skills learned automatically: in direct contrast of 1e, warriors learn abilities automatically as they gain levels.


TOPIC 2 - Mages and Learning Magic

a) Mages only cast magic, they do not have melee attacks. No matter what magic system we end up using though, weaker spells may still be cast.

b) Mage 'weapons' only amplify magical ability: They are not used to physically attack.

c) Magic is learned by purchasing spell books: casters learn magic gradually through XP levels by having these books in the inventory.

d) 'Concentrate' or 'Meditate' ability: recharges magic power faster but leaves character more vulnerable to attack

e) Sealed books: rather than the 2c spell book idea of learning spells with XP levels, spells are learned only once a character's intelligence stats or whatever reach a certain level.


TOPIC 3 - General Battle System Ideas

a) CAL System: Concurrent Attack Limitations. Prevents players from using powerful attacks over and over.

b) Power/Magic bar System: Spells consume a certain amount of magic from a magic bar. The bar regenerates slowly during battle and regeneration may be expidited via a 'concentrate' command. Weaker spells require 0% of the 100% magic bar to be cast.

c) Protect Ally Command: an able character may spend a turn protecting another who is resting or meditating.

d) Combo Skills: (I think we all have our own idea of what this is)


TOPIC 4 - General Game Ideas

a) No save points in dungeons. If the characters die their XP/gold is reduced and they return to the last point they saved Or the player may restart and cheat the system :P

********************************************************

Ok that's what we got so far I think. From now on when you are refering to a certain idea try to include the topic number and letter so we can have a quick reference and recall what it is. (ex: combo skills is 3d) Now let me list out the ideas that contrast each other:

- MAT vs Skill system (I think we are favoring skill system at this point)

- Skill book vs auto-skills (varied opinions on this one)

- Magic learned from spell books vs sealed books (varied opinions)

- CAL system vs magic/power bar system (leaning towards bars I think)

********************************************************

FINALLY, I'd like to post my summarized opinion on each of these ideas. I suggest you guys do the same :)

1a) MAT: I like the skill system better

1b) Skill system: I like it but we need further discussion of the details

1c) Cool-down time: I strongly dislike it. I think we already have enough limitations on successive powerful attacks and this feature could be REALLY annoying in long, drawn-out battles

1d) Rest ability: I like it a lot. I think its both practical and useful to have.

1e) Skill books: I like it. If mages have magic books, I don't think its fair that warriors can just 'learn' by themselves

1f) Auto-skill learning: Dislike it for reasons stated above

2a) Mages don't have melee attacks: I like it a lot. Of course only if we allow some weaker spells to consume no magic power/whatever.

2b) Mage weapons amplify magic power: I like it a lot.

2c) Magic by spell books: I like the idea a lot.

2d) Concentrate ability: Like it a lot

2e) Magic by sealed books: I like 2c better. Its easier to balance the game based on learning spells at XP levels rather than specific character attributes. I see it potentially annoying both for programmers and players.

3a) CAL: I like it if we allow a collective power/magic bar rather than specific attacks being limited.

3b) Power/Magic bar system: This is extremely similar to CAL, you guys just don't realize it. I like it though.

3c) Protect Ally Command: I like it very much. It complements the rest/concentrate command in a very good way and I think it will be useful in the game

3d) Combo Skills: I don't know what you guys are thinking about this, so I can't comment. I agree combo skills are cool and useful, if implemented correctly (Chrono Triggers is the best example). Do you mean different combo attacks using multiple characters, or combo attacks with different skills?

4a) No Save Points: I like it and I think if we balance it correctly it won't make the game impossibly hard like Phil/gorzuate thinks I"m trying to do :)

********************************************************

Lets try not to introduce any new ideas for now and narrow down this list first. Phew, it took me like 30 minutes to make this post!
User avatar
gorzuate
Developer
Posts: 2575
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:03 am
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Contact:

Postby gorzuate » Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:03 am

1a) MAT: :| Skill system all the way, baby!

1b) Skill system: :D further discussion needed (that goes for pretty much everything else on this list too)

1c) Cool-down time: :? At first I liked it, but then Tyler made a good point about it getting annoying. If we have skill chargeup time AND cool-down time also, that's a little much, no?

1d) Rest ability: :D

1e) Skill books: :D

1f) Auto-skill learning: :(

2a) Mages don't have melee attacks: :D

2b) Mage weapons amplify magic power: :D

2c) Magic by spell books: :D

2d) Concentrate ability: :D

2e) Magic by sealed books: :(

3a) CAL: :| Sounds a lot like cool down time.

3b) Power/Magic bar system: :D

3c) Protect Ally Command: :D

3d) Combo Skills: :D I had in mind combo attacks with different skills for one character. We could make it so they don't/can't learn them until later in the game so we can make pretty powerful.

4a) No Save Points: :| If by no save points you mean some but not excessive amounts of save points, then it must be balanced correctly and carefully
Last edited by gorzuate on Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
Image
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:14 am

gorzuate wrote:3d) Combo Skills: :D I had in mind combo attacks with different skills for one character. We could make it so they don't/can't learn them until later in the game so we can make pretty powerful.

4a) No Save Points: :? If by no save points you mean some but not excessive amounts of save points, then it must be balanced correctly and carefully


You have almost the exact same reactions I do except for the last two features above. Here are my comments:

3d) The multiple skill combo attack sounds like a promising idea to me. For some examples, a mage could use a spell that combines fire, water, and lightning magic into a single attack. A melee example: using a slash and puncture attack to penetrate all attack points on an enemy for heavy damage. Of course combo skills would take up more than of the stamina/magic than normal skills. I think this system will take a lot of balancing though.

Another combo-system is the one that uses skills from multiple characters together like in Chrono Trigger. I always loved that system and they made it work really well in CT, but I don't know if you guys would like that better or not. I like the idea of using a mage to cast a lighting spell and a fighter to use a lightning enchanted sword to strike the enemy though :cool: So now we have two combo systems to choose from.

4a) I was originally thinking of just letting players save in towns and such only, but then I realized that this might not be a good idea because if save points are too far apart, if the player wants to stop playing or has to go do something else it will take a long time to get back to the save point. I dunno, maybe if we place save points (and I'm speaking generally here) at the beginning and half-way points in dungeons, then it will work at well. I think this is a more reasonable alternative.
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:21 am

Ok, I'm going to assume it's safe to assume that we are no longer considering the following features:

DROPPED FEATURES

1a) MAT

1c) Cool-down time

1f) Auto-skill learning

2e) Magic by sealed books

3a) CAL

4a) No Save Points (instead, we don't have an excessive amount of SPs)

If you have an objection to why we should keep one of the expired features above, by all means voice your opinion!



Now then, lets also narrow down what features we all want to see in the game (again I'm making a general assumption, correct me if I'm wrong):

NEWLY APPROVED FEATURES

1b) Skill system: a lot of further discussion needed

(Features that are two parts of a fighter/mage pair, I am combining them together to reduce the size of the list)

1d) Rest ability (fighter) / 2d) Concentrate ability (mage)

1e) Skill books (fighter) / 2c) Magic by spell books (mage)

2a) Mages don't have melee attacks

2b) Mage weapons amplify magic power

3b) Power/Magic bar system (Phil and I think the max value should be 1000, any objections to that?)

3c) Protect Ally Command

3d) Combo Skills a lot of further discussion needed

I also have another thread about the Allacrost project at the Animesuki forums here. I mention it because a lot of the ideas and feedback I've gotten for the game came from here. The second to last post (by Sanjurodnord) had some rather interesting ideas as well. Particularly I liked number 6 and number 8 to consider them for the game, but I don't think they are as exciting / have as much impact as our current feature list. Tell me if you guys like the ideas enough to include them in. If we don't include them though it won't be a big deal to me.

Now then, the two big topics we have to discuss are the skill system and the combo system. I'll speak my thoughts about that later, this post is already turning out to be longer than I wanted.

A final topic we need to discuss regards the learning of skills/magic from books. We have so far discussed two options for skill/magic learning, relative and absolute leveling. I shall now remind you of the difference between the two using the following book example:

Book of Fire Magic. Spells contained: Fire 1, Fire 2, Fire 3 (I'm being totally unoriginal of course).

Relative Scenario: Our hero finds/buys this book when he is at level 12. Fire 1 takes 2 levels to learn, Fire 2 takes 5 levels to learn, and Fire 3 takes 11 levels to learn. Therefore, the hero will learn the spells at the following XP levels: {Fire 1 - Level 14}, {Fire 2 - Level 16}, {Fire 3 - Level 23}

Absolute Scenario: The hero obtains the book at level 17. The following absolute XP levels are set for the spells: {Fire 1 - Level 16}, {Fire 2 - Level 21}, {Fire 3 - Level 29}. So now the hero automatically knows the Fire 1 spell, just from picking up the book.


Personally, I favor the relative scheme :approve:. I can identify a single weakness in each scheme though. In relative, since we are releasing the game in modules, our players may spend a lot of time leveling up before the next module is released and thus may find a book in a later module when they are at a very high XP level. That would make learning the new skills found in the book take a longer time. The flaw with absolute is that you can automatically just come to know a skill/spell, and that isn't very realistic in my opinion. Please vote for one or the other (or if you have a different idea, share).



EDIT: Mixed Scenario: Sanjuronurd over at AnimeSuki just had a really good idea to compensate for the weaknesses of both relative and absolute schemes. Here is a copy of his idea:

"Only problem I would see with a relative system would be that a lvl 45 mage should learn a spell faster than a lvl 5 mage learning the same spell. (Not to mention in most rpg's the time spent going from lvl 5 to lvl 10 is nothing compared to the time spent going from lvl 45 to lvl 50) Might be a bit more realistic (and complicated! joy!) to assign difficulties to a spell based on how powerful it is and have relative times for a spell based on a mage's level. For example:
Fireball 1
Lvl 1-10 Five levels
Lvl 20-30 Four levels
Lvl 30-35 Three Levles
Lvl 40-45 Two Levels
Lvl 46-49 One Level
Lvl 50 Immediately and just pretends he already knew the spell and just never saw fit to use it before.

For a higher level spell like Ultima or Ragnarok or what have you...you might want to set absolute limits on what level you can begin learning a spell to prevent lower level mages from learning them early on."

I now favor this scheme over both relative and absolute. I think it is a great idea and I see little flaw with it (as long as we balance it correctly). What do you guys think?



He also had another elaboration on one of his ideas which is as follows:

"My idea was mostly for boss fights (I think you've got ample restrictions on magic recovery to prevent overabuse of any "uber" skills in random battles since they'll want to be as close to full health/magic as possible b4 the boss fight). The reaction I was refering to was something like that episode of Kenshin I mentioned, Saitoh has his uber sword thrust technique that he's wailing on Kenshin with but after 2-3 consecutive uses Kenshin has seen the attack enough that he's developed counters/evades to use against the technique. Basically, if a character keeps doing the same attack over and over again, the boss character would eventually have to expect it and would try to prepare himself for it (via dodging or preparing a counter attack). For added flare, could include some good villain banter(nothing like a good smack talk in the middle of a battle!) in there once the've gotten accustomed to an attack too if players keep trying to use their uber skill. :heh: "Fool! Your skills are too weak..."

This whole idea would require scripting each boss fight individually I suppose, since you wouldn't want each boss to respond the same either or it'll feel artificial (want the fight to feel like you're fighting against the boss's skills and not fighting within the rules of a game)."

What do you guys think about this idea? I'm kinda :| because I can imagine it going terribly wrong if the AI isn't constructed well enough. Although I do think it is cool because if you find a weakness to a boss and start repeatedly exploiting it, eventually you will have to find a new weakness :cool:
User avatar
gorzuate
Developer
Posts: 2575
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:03 am
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Contact:

Postby gorzuate » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:12 pm

Actually the only reason I didn't post right away to your unedited post, Roots, was that I was trying to think of a mix between the relative and absolute scenarios, but it looks like Sanjuronurd did it for us, yay! :D That's definitely what we should do.

I'm also all for the scripting of the fights with the bosses and making them semi-smart. We definitely need to do that, no questions asked :!: Although that might be a later feature...right now I think we've got our work cut out for us.

I also like Sanjuronurd's idea about battle stances. Haven't really given it enough thought yet as to how it would work, but man, this guy's full of great idea :approve:

The newly approved features are all good. I'll post some ideas about skills and combos a bit later.
Image
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:32 am

gorzuate wrote:Actually the only reason I didn't post right away to your unedited post, Roots, was that I was trying to think of a mix between the relative and absolute scenarios, but it looks like Sanjuronurd did it for us, yay! :D That's definitely what we should do.

I'm also all for the scripting of the fights with the bosses and making them semi-smart. We definitely need to do that, no questions asked :!: Although that might be a later feature...right now I think we've got our work cut out for us.

I also like Sanjuronurd's idea about battle stances. Haven't really given it enough thought yet as to how it would work, but man, this guy's full of great idea :approve:

The newly approved features are all good. I'll post some ideas about skills and combos a bit later.


Ok, so I'm going to assume for now we are going with the mixed skill/magic learning system. If you support the enhancement of AI boss fights Phil, then I'll back up your opinion you because AI is your territory. But please don't call them 'scripted' because they are not. They are 'enhanced intelligence' fights, right? Battle stances have actually been done quite a few times before in FF-type games by allowing a 'front' row and a 'back' row. If we do use this feature (personally I'm feeling :| about it), then I think it would be best if everytime stances were changed we halved (not emptied) the ready bar so that a full turn isn't wasted. Additionally, I'd like to see that character's stance change rather than just backing up or moving forward a few feet.

Now I will talk about my opinions on our two big decisions we have left. Skill System, and Combo System.

************************************************************
Skill System

Alright, I :approve: the idea of having attack, defense, and support skills. I think that we should organize the battle menu so both warrirors and mages can select these three options from the main battle prompt.

I :( the idea of having individual levels for each skill, or each category (attack/defense/support) skill. The code will get more complicated, the balancing will get MUCH harder, and it gives the player too many numbers to look at and think about. I said this before, but I think the characters raising XP levels, which raises their stats, which raises the effectiveness of their skills is a perfect system. Think about it like this: say your character has 3 attack skills, each on level 4. You find one skill useful against a particular type of foe you encounter frequently and it gets raised to level 6. Now you are at a boss, and you have to choose between a lvl 6 skill and 2 lvl 4 skills. Which are you going to pick? The lvl 6 of course, and after winning the battle it will be raised to lvl 7! By the time you realize it, those lvl 4 skills are so weak to you now that they become usless and you never use them. (Remember, we are trying to remove useless and tedious aspects from RPGs). If that doesn't convince you guys to think twice about skill levels, I don't know what else will.

That about sums up what I want to say about skills.

*************************************************************
Combo System

Honestly, I'm still a little :| about this one. Sounds nice, could certainly be pretty cool, but do we need it? We already have a lot of great battle features going into this game, and this idea seems to me like it could be trying to put more water in a glass that's already full. If we do decide to use it though (which I'm not totally against), we need to figure out how. I can think of two ways it could work:

1) Individual Characters, multiple skills

A single character can combine two of his or her skills into a more effective (and more stamina/magic bar consuming) attack. Question is, what will these skill combos be? It can be pretty hard for some characters, like say a heavy axe warrior. What does he do, use his axe swinging skill and then use his axe hammer skill? Why don't we just make a single skill for that double-blow? I'm feeling :( towards this combo implementation.

2) Multiple characters, individual skills

This is like the system in Chrono Trigger. Lets say we have a mage and a fighter in our party. When both characters are ready to act and their stamina/magic bars are high enough, the mage can cast ice on the fighters sword, who then slashes upward at the enemy. This combo system has my :approve:, because I think it works better to actually create multiple (and meaningful) combination attacks, and it demonstrates teamwork between the allied party. :D I believe this would be much easier to implement than the first combo system, more fun, and could be balanced more easily.


So in summary, if we implement the combo system, I want the 2nd type :approve:, but if we don't implement it at all, I am ok with that too. Time for you lazy bums to share your opinions!

(Note to staff: I would like to have the discussion in this thread finished by Sunday at the latest, 7 days from now).
User avatar
Biohazard
Former Staff
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:03 pm
Contact:

Postby Biohazard » Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:04 am

About 1c) Cool Down time -
Well, do you want only to drop the cool down time or the charge time too? I think at last one of em should be implemented to prevent over use. And i also think while in a battle one of those timers ( if only one is used this one ) should be raised.
For example:
XXX readies double slash
<3 seconds wait>
XXX uses double slash against <enemie>

--- Now in the same battle he decided to use it again, the wait time is multiplied by 1.5.

XXX readies double slash
<4.5 seconds wait>
XXX uses double slash against <enemie>

--- Now if he uses it a third time

XXX readies double slash
<6.75 seconds wait>
XXX uses double slash against <enemie>


... If you decide to have the pre-wait , that means the char has to charge the attack ( and maybe is more vunerable in that stance ) it might be a good way to prevent over use. You could also decide to give each skill its own wait time, and if one skill is used all other skills are multiplied as well..but then again i think people would go and only use their strongest skills so they dont raise very high trough the use of weaker skills ... oh well, maybe some of my thoughts were useful...


1b) The skill system:
I think only fighters should have skills, while the mages have their spells / magic power.

And i also think it should have sub categories like Attack, Defense and Support. I actually think those 3 are a good pick.

And yeah i still think it would be good to make it somehow that people cant be attack AND defense specialised... *shrugs* maybe a middle-option can be found for that. Or maybe make it character based ( some characters can predifined learn more attack skills while others can learn more defense skills ) ... but yeah id like to have more individuality over my characters...

BY THE WAY. The more individuality you have the more likly it is that someone will play the game again after beating it. To try out new stuff.

I played Deus Ex 3 or 4 times just because i was able to skill my character, and i loved that!

So i really dont think that individualizing is wrong, and i hate those RPG's where you are "put into a train and just driving trough the game without taking different routes" if you get what i mean. It gets raher boring...

3b) Nah, if you manage to let the spell consume a good amount its cool by me. But yeah, i would prefer it if spells are rahter powerful but take away alot of magic power too *shrugs* ...

3c)
=> I would think it would be good if warriors had 1 innate skill for each sektion. That means 1 innate attack, 1 innate defend and 1 innate support. The Protect ally one could be the innate for defend or support. I'm against it that mages have protect ally, since it wouldnt really make sense....

I like sanjuronurd's mixed scenario best!

My 2 cents :D


EDIT: I got a good idea!!

How about mages being able to cast the normal attack spells on their melee allys to enhanch them? FOr example:

Mage casts Fire 1 on teammate
Teammate glows in faint red glow
=> He gains fire type, meaning he takes more damage from water, and reduced damage from heat. If he does an attack it will be upgraded to Burning Blade 1 (for exaple ) and has fire property with a little extra damage.
After he done an attack his faint glow will vanish and he will be normal type again. :D
User avatar
gorzuate
Developer
Posts: 2575
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:03 am
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Contact:

Postby gorzuate » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:31 am

Roots wrote: 3d) The multiple skill combo attack sounds like a promising idea to me. For some examples, a mage could use a spell that combines fire, water, and lightning magic into a single attack. A melee example: using a slash and puncture attack to penetrate all attack points on an enemy for heavy damage. Of course combo skills would take up more than of the stamina/magic than normal skills. I think this system will take a lot of balancing though.


What happened to this, Roots? All of a sudden you don't like that anymore? I think it's a really cool idea. Which makes me think why not implement two different types of combo attacks? So what if it takes more coding? It would make the game more fun, having a multiple skill single character combo while also having a single skill multiple character combo.

gorzuate wrote: Let's see, what else...oh yeah, before I forget. The thing about hidden items where a '?' pops up over your head if you're near an item...uh, how close to the item do you have to be? I mean, I wouldn't want to read a FAQ saying there's a hidden item in a certain room, only to not be able to find it because no matter how you walk/travel across the room you just can't seem to find it. I think some button to press when you enter area pointing out all the objects of interest would be good. Need to give the players a break now and then, don't we?


Hmm, nobody ever followed up on this.

Biohazard wrote: 1b) The skill system:
I think only fighters should have skills, while the mages have their spells / magic power.

And i also think it should have sub categories like Attack, Defense and Support. I actually think those 3 are a good pick.


I agree. Why should mages have skills when they have spells? I mean sure, certain spells can fall into different categories, such as attack spells, defense spells, and support spells. But they don't need skills. Now that I think about it, melee fighters would just have moves also classified into the attack, defense, and support categories, right? So the skills part, it's more like moves with different categories.

For the skill book for melee fighters, I'm a little :| about. There's a stereotype that mages are intelligent (and hence like to read books, such as spell books) and that fighters are dumb (probably never picked up a book in their life). I may be overexagerrating here, but you get my point. I just can't see an axe-man finding a dusty book and sitting to read it (even if he could learn some new moves). No, I think with melee fighters it would be better to let them learn new moves through a combination of training XP levels.

Which brings me to my next point. How many levels will there be? 50 should be enough, but that depends on how easy it is to gain a level and how long the game will take to complete. Also, will there be a point system, so that by killing enemies you gain points, and at a certain amount of points you gain a level? This would take some balancing to ensure that no matter what a player does, his character has enough XP levels to advance to the next part. Wouldn't want them to get stuck and not be able to continue, now would we?

Biohazard wrote: EDIT: I got a good idea!!

How about mages being able to cast the normal attack spells on their melee allys to enhanch them? FOr example:

Mage casts Fire 1 on teammate
Teammate glows in faint red glow
=> He gains fire type, meaning he takes more damage from water, and reduced damage from heat. If he does an attack it will be upgraded to Burning Blade 1 (for exaple ) and has fire property with a little extra damage.
After he done an attack his faint glow will vanish and he will be normal type again.


I think this would fall under the single skill multiple character combo.

Resting/Concentration somebody somewhere (it might have been Sanjuronurd) gave a good point by saying that if the character can rest anywhere anytime, they'll be fully rested/at full power all the time. Which is a flaw of Neverwinter Nights, I'll give you that (although I'm not compaining, I do it all the time :D ) But we definitely need to think about this. How would it be used so that this didn't happen? Concentration would be used to increase the magic bar of a mage so that he/she could perform a spell that they wouldn't have been able to otherwise. Same goes for resting and the power bar. Just thinking out loud here... ah! :think: I know! We could set it up so that a player could only rest/concentrate once their power/magic bar was below a certain level, and then they could only restore their bar half way or something, and even then once they had rested they wouldn't be able to it again for a set amount of time. So they wouldn't be abusing the system by resting until their bar was full again.

Now, CAL and cool-down time have been listed as disapproved features. But Roots said somewhere (too lazy to look for it) [and I paraphrase] "What's chargeup time good for? So a sword fighter can stare down his enemy before performing a triple slash?" So, that would put us at NOTHING. Well, I gave it some thought, and I think we may need some sort of mix on this as well. One option would be for the melee fighters have cool down time and no charge up time while the mages have charge up time (to charge their spells/wands/whatever) and no cool down time. The question is how to implement this. Biohazard gave us somewhat of an example at the beginning of his last post. But I looked through the whole thread and everyone's been talking about time, as in seconds, for charge up or cool down. How do you implement time in a fight which is turn based (i.e. the player selects who to attack with what, and when that's done, the enemy does the same thing on and on until someone dies)? You can implement time on the map when they're walking around, so cool down time may work well. However, I think it may be easier to implement the CAL system, where players are prevented from using the same move for a certain number of TURNS, not SECONDS. That way this could carry over to the next battle, whereas with time you could run around the map until the cool down time had expired before running into another enemy.

I therefore suggest CAL be reinstated.

And now I take my leave.
Image
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:06 am

Jeez, these long posts are killing me!

gorzuate wrote:Which makes me think why not implement two different types of combo attacks? So what if it takes more coding? It would make the game more fun, having a multiple skill single character combo while also having a single skill multiple character combo.


No, I am absolutely against having TWO combo systems! When a game has two combo systems you KNOW it has too many features for its own good. You are right, I did change my stance on single character multiple skill combos. I say just make those 'combo' skills single skills all by themselves and implement the multi-character combo skill (if we implement a combo at all).

gorzuate wrote: Hmm, nobody ever followed up on this.


The answer is the '?' only pops up if the item is next to you (top, left, bottom, right). The hidden items also periodically glimmer or shine, so no, the player shouldn't have to walk down every stretch of a town or dungeon.

Biohazard wrote: 1b) The skill system:
I think only fighters should have skills, while the mages have their spells / magic power.

And i also think it should have sub categories like Attack, Defense and Support. I actually think those 3 are a good pick.


When I said mages have attack/support/defense in their root battle menus, I meant that those are sorted categories of magic not skills. I never said mages should have skills, I just said they should have the same sorted categories as fighters did.

gorzuate wrote: For the skill book for melee fighters, I'm a little :| about. .....I just can't see an axe-man finding a dusty book and sitting to read it (even if he could learn some new moves). No, I think with melee fighters it would be better to let them learn new moves through a combination of training XP levels.


I see your point, but then this would mean that you are now supporting auto-skill learning, which earlier you denied. Neither mages nor fighters perfect their new magic/skills simply by reading, they have to practice too. They practice as they travel (we don't see it in the game directly), and thus after they gain some XP levels they have practiced it enough to now use it effectively. I don't think we should take the skill book system out, even if it doesn't seem as realistic because people like to stereotype that 'fighters are stupid' :frustrated: (its a game!).


gorzuate wrote: Which brings me to my next point. How many levels will there be? ......This would take some balancing to ensure that no matter what a player does, his character has enough XP levels to advance to the next part. Wouldn't want them to get stuck and not be able to continue, now would we?


I was thinking 255 XP levels at the max, 100 at the min. 50 is way too little (I have a very long story in mind for this game). Yes, after defeating enemies you get a certain amount of XP points and after obtaining enough points you move on to the next level. You need to go play Final Fantasy Phil. And by no means will a player get 'stuck' if they get to the maximum XP level. They just won't be able to gain any more levels, but can still continue through the game.

gorzuate wrote: I think this would fall under the single skill multiple character combo.


Agreed. Tthat's exactly what it is.

gorzuate wrote: Blah blah about resting/concetration


I think we are on totally different pages here. I had always thought of the rest/concetration ability to be something that you could only use in battle. If you use it outside, it becomes stupid and pointless because then the player would just rest/concentrate after each battle as much as they could. Why not just automatically regenerate their health and whatever for them? No, we will not make the game that exploitable like NWN is. Regeneration outside of battle can only be done by walking around (and thus more battles may ensue).

gorzuate wrote: Cal/Cool-down time rambling....One option would be for the melee fighters have cool down time and no charge up time while the mages have charge up time (to charge their spells/wands/whatever) and no cool down time.


I think that is a good idea. I'm still not clear on what cool-down time is exactly though. So after the attack, the warrior will just stand there panting for a while (and his ATB will not re-fill until he has 'cooled down') before he can begin charging his ATB and attack again? Seems a little weird to me, though I admit it doesn't seem fair that mages have charge-up if fighters don't have cool-down.

gorzuate wrote:...But I looked through the whole thread and everyone's been talking about time, as in seconds, for charge up or cool down. How do you implement time in a fight which is turn based (i.e. the player selects who to attack with what, and when that's done, the enemy does the same thing on and on until someone dies)?


Because its easier this way. If you implement these times turn-based, then the charge-up/cool-down times could vary GREATLY depending on the number of characters/enemies present in the battlefield. No, I definetly think charge-up/cool-down should be in seconds, not turns.

gorzuate wrote:You can implement time on the map when they're walking around, so cool down time may work well. However, I think it may be easier to implement the CAL system, where players are prevented from using the same move for a certain number of TURNS, not SECONDS. That way this could carry over to the next battle, whereas with time you could run around the map until the cool down time had expired before running into another enemy.

I therefore suggest CAL be reinstated.


And now you have me completely be-wildered about cool-down time once again. There is cool-down time OUTSIDE of the battle? That seems a bit far-fetched to me. What the heck is it that you think cool-down is and what its used for??? Does it prevent the player for repeatedly selecting the same command? I never thought it served that purpose. CAL did, but then Felix proposed the bar system which replaces that. Instead of not allowing single attacks to be used consecutively, the bar system maintains a status for all attacks, effectively doing the same thing but in a much better way (IMO). I don't like the idea that players are restricted on using the same attack for a certain number of TURNS (yes turns) and also have the bar system limitation. Its unneccesary to have both.




Finally before I go I thought of one last small thing. If we do have a charge-up for mages and cool-down for fighters, and during both of these phases those characters are more vulnerable to attack, then we can do the same thing with enemies and have the player take advantage of that system. We can show an enemy flashing when its charging up to cast a spell, and after a physical attack obvious the player knows that enemy is 'cooling-down'. Both charge-up and cool-down will last for a short number of SECONDS (not turns), so the window of exploitation is small. Tell me what you think of that. Now back to work :hack:
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:19 am

Forgot to mention a few things in Felix's post :)

Biohazard wrote:--- Now in the same battle he decided to use it again, the wait time is multiplied by 1.5.

XXX readies double slash
<4.5 seconds wait>
XXX uses double slash against <enemie>

--- Now if he uses it a third time

XXX readies double slash
<6.75 seconds wait>
XXX uses double slash against <enemie>


I think increasing the wait time is overkill. We already have the bar, and so that means no character should be able to utilize their strongest skills more than a few times before they can no longer do so. We have already protected against over-abuse of skills, and I think adding this idea in will be unneccessary and perhaps even annoying for restricting abusiveness by the player.

Biohazard wrote:And yeah i still think it would be good to make it somehow that people cant be attack AND defense specialised...... but yeah id like to have more individuality over my characters...

BY THE WAY. The more individuality you have the more likly it is that someone will play the game again after beating it. To try out new stuff.


Our opinions differ greatly on this individuality part. I perfectly understand about "taking a train the same route twice is dull" analogy, but I'm not a huge 'customization' fan. It makes the system really hard to balance, there is almost always a huge exploit, and characters can become fighters they were never meant to be. I think having enough side quests and stuff is enough. I've played every FF game at least 3 times, and those are pretty darn non-configurable don't you think? Maybe we can set some cross-roads in the story where a player can only go one way or the other (though I HATE coming to those kinds of points! I want the WHOLE STORY in one blow!).


Biohazard wrote:I would think it would be good if warriors had 1 innate skill for each sektion. That means 1 innate attack, 1 innate defend and 1 innate support. The Protect ally one could be the innate for defend or support. I'm against it that mages have protect ally, since it wouldnt really make sense....


I agree about innate skills, but maybe not in every category. When you start the game with Claudius, mayb he only has a 'slash' attack skill. Or additionally how about a 'defense boost' support skill? As you meet other chracters down the road you will automatically be at higher levels, and thus they will be at your XP level and have more 'innate' skills than Claudius did when he started.

I think mages can have a protect ally ability. They can use magic to protect allies rather than their armor. Protect magic is imporant support magic I think!


Biohazard wrote:I like sanjuronurd's mixed scenario best!


I think its safe to say this is our official schem then. :approve:
User avatar
Balthazar
Former Staff
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:12 pm
Location: Penticton, BC
Contact:

OH MY GOD, MY HEAD HURTS

Postby Balthazar » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:36 am

Well, that was an ordeal to read :eyespin:

Now then, let me take a look at all of this, and if anybody posts before me, I'm gonna cry. :cry: (I would like to point out at this time that Roots posted two seconds after I wrote that. :bash: As such :cry: :cry: :cry: . Thank you)

EDIT: Actually roots posted TWICE! :axe:

*ahem*

I'm basically gonna scroll around the topic and answer things in no particular order, and this post should be a long one, as I haven't posted in this topic yet (not that that stopped Roots at all).

I will preface this that since World of Warcraft is an RPG of sorts, and it has lots of good ideas, I will be borrowing some. However, most ideas taken are generic, and have probably be done before anyway.

Skill/Spell Learning
Avoiding grind is key. If you buy books, players grind for gold. If you learn spells at given levels, players grind for exp. However, if you are required to learn certain languages to read spell books, and these translation books are only available in new areas, then you remove the grind. Think the "Book of Mudora" in LoZ: Link to the Past.

Basically, when you reach a new "land" there will be spell books to be found. Howver, they will be written in the ancient language of the local inhabitants. In order to decipher the spell books, you need to find a sage/ visit a library/ find a book in a chest, so that you can read the language. This means that a player can attempt to go through the game at a low level, and still get the spells, or grind if they want to if they are stuck on a boss, etc. It would also prevent grinding between releases (which would make exp or gold requirements useless anyway). I think this will also add to the game's depth, as it adds some history to the world. This could also work with the relative system.

As far as fighter skills go, how about they have to visit the local arena/dojo/archery range, etc. and be trained by the master there to learn their new skills. This way, they're not reading stuffy old books. You could tuck away masters in the mountains/forests/caves for rare skills.

I like the idea of charge/cast time for spells, and cool down for skills. :approve:

Combos
Single character skill combination combos are best presented in the Enix game Robotrek. Depending on your equipment, you could create different skills based on your "feet"/"back"/"hands". Depending on the movement, these would take off a certain amount from your turn guage (how long until you get to do an action). However, this would be a significant amount of work.

In doing research for my RPG engine, I found that a fair number of users want multi character combos. Either like Chrono Trigger, or even the Twin magic in FF IV. I therefore vote for this (even if it makes more work for me) because it will please the folks out there. And that's what this is all about.

Items
I think having items sparkle AND the ? is a little much. Most of the game seems pretty sophisticated, and then there is this bit of hand holding. The tabs in Chrono Trigger sparkled, and it was more than enough to find them. I say one or the other not both.

Giving elements to players
Biohazard mentioned being able to cast Fire on an ally and have them gain properties of that element. I think that it would be pretty neat, but that it should be a seperate spell, instead of the normal attack spell.

Skill Spam
I like the idea of increasing cool down for spamming the same ability over and over again. This will make the player think about the battle more, rather than going on auto pilot.

Equipping Abilites
Someone mentioned that in NWN or something, you could have 100 spells, but only use about 15 at a time. I think this would be interesting. You could then specialize in which skillset you wanted (attack/defense/support). However, I also do not like the idea of having a seperate level for each. Again, too many numbers. With the limited book design, you could specialize per battle, which I think is enough custom to satisfy most players, while not being overly complex.

Mage Weapons
Mage weapons amping power is good, but make it a two edged sword (err..wand?).

Sure the ROD OF THOR! could give you mega lightning damage, but man does your earth magic suck now.

Save Points
Basically just limit them to a reasonable number. I don't think a penalty is worth it. Maybe you can save outside the dungeon, and then save half way/two thirds of the way through?

Magic Bar System
It takes a percentage? That's a lot of thinking perhaps. Really, it is exactly the same as an MP based system, but with relative instead of absolute values. You could do exactly the same thing with MP, and just reduce the casting costs. Perhaps reducing the casting costs could be made a support ability? Otherwise you're stuck at full cost, but can use an extra/more support abilites.

Protect
Why not? But don't overdo it. Concentration should still be risky.

The End!
That's all my thoughts. Man you guys type a lot. After I finished reading it, I had to go install Thunderbird and let my mind settle before I replied. :eyespin:
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8666
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Re: OH MY GOD, MY HEAD HURTS

Postby Roots » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:53 am

Balthazar wrote:Well, that was an ordeal to read :eyespin:

Now then, let me take a look at all of this, and if anybody posts before me, I'm gonna cry. :cry: (I would like to point out at this time that Roots posted two seconds after I wrote that. :bash: As such :cry: :cry: :cry: . Thank you)

EDIT: Actually roots posted TWICE! :axe:


First I would like to point out that that is the best use of smilies I have seen all month. :D Sorry 'bout that mate!


Balthazar wrote:Skill/Spell Learning
Basically, when you reach a new "land" there will be spell books to be found. Howver, they will be written in the ancient language of the local inhabitants. In order to decipher the spell books, you need to find a sage/ visit a library/ find a book in a chest, so that you can read the language. This means that a player can attempt to go through the game at a low level, and still get the spells, or grind if they want to if they are stuck on a boss, etc. It would also prevent grinding between releases (which would make exp or gold requirements useless anyway). I think this will also add to the game's depth, as it adds some history to the world. This could also work with the relative system.

As far as fighter skills go, how about they have to visit the local arena/dojo/archery range, etc. and be trained by the master there to learn their new skills. This way, they're not reading stuffy old books. You could tuck away masters in the mountains/forests/caves for rare skills.


I think these are a couple of good ideas, butttt to be honest I don't particularly like them. I would be frustrated if I found a book that needed to be translated before I could use it, because then I would 'grind' as you say, to find out where I could get it translated or where this dojo master resided so I could get the skill. It is realistic, I'll give you that, but it just seems like a pain in the ass to me. :( With the sanjuronurd skill leveling system I think everything is simple and effective, the way it should be. I like games to be more centered around gameplay and story than going on mundane / reoccuring quests to obtain new skills. When I find the book, I want to start that ticker on learning the skill. Maybe for some really special/uber-l33t skills/magic we could have the party seek out sages/dojo masters/whatever. I don't know what the other guys think, but I have a feeling I'm going to be alone in my opinion of this. :sad:



Balthazar wrote:Combos
In doing research for my RPG engine, I found that a fair number of users want multi character combos. Either like Chrono Trigger, or even the Twin magic in FF IV. I therefore vote for this (even if it makes more work for me) because it will please the folks out there. And that's what this is all about.


Glad to see you have your priorities straight. :D So I think that makes 3 collective votes for this kind of combo system now?


Balthazar wrote:Items
I think having items sparkle AND the ? is a little much. Most of the game seems pretty sophisticated, and then there is this bit of hand holding. The tabs in Chrono Trigger sparkled, and it was more than enough to find them. I say one or the other not both.


I gave this some thought and I think you are right. I think just having the items sparkle should be enough (though I don't want to make it TOO frequent or obvious, like in CT). Just having the '?' would be annoying because the player would have to walk everywhere still (we'd just eliminate the constant button mashing).


Balthazar wrote:Giving elements to players
Biohazard mentioned being able to cast Fire on an ally and have them gain properties of that element. I think that it would be pretty neat, but that it should be a seperate spell, instead of the normal attack spell.


Agreed. A seperate spell or a combo skill is what we should classify it as.


Balthazar wrote:Skill Spam
I like the idea of increasing cool down for spamming the same ability over and over again. This will make the player think about the battle more, rather than going on auto pilot.


Well if both you and Felix are for it, then I feel comfortable adding it in. This is basically my proposed CAL system, but instead of totally restricting the skill for a number of turns you increase the cool-down time. It makes sense too, because if you repeatedly use the same attack you use the same muscle groups, which can wear you down pretty fast. We'll need to be cautious about how we balance this one though.



Balthazar wrote:Equipping Abilites
Someone mentioned that in NWN or something, you could have 100 spells, but only use about 15 at a time. I think this would be interesting. You could then specialize in which skillset you wanted (attack/defense/support). However, I also do not like the idea of having a seperate level for each. Again, too many numbers. With the limited book design, you could specialize per battle, which I think is enough custom to satisfy most players, while not being overly complex.



I'm feeling :| towards equipping abilities, but if it is enough to satisfy Felix's "I must customize my players. I must re-play the game 18 times." zombie-like trance, then I can be convinced to give it my :approve:. Glad you agree with me about not having multiple skill levels/too many numbers.



Balthazar wrote:Mage Weapons
Mage weapons amping power is good, but make it a two edged sword (err..wand?).

Sure the ROD OF THOR! could give you mega lightning damage, but man does your earth magic suck now.



Interesting idea. I'm sitting right in the middle on this one. Of course I think there should also be mage weapons that are 'general' and don't have this double-edged effect. Then it might make it more interesting for the player when they have to buy their mage weapons.



Balthazar wrote:Save Points
Basically just limit them to a reasonable number. I don't think a penalty is worth it. Maybe you can save outside the dungeon, and then save half way/two thirds of the way through?


:approve:


Balthazar wrote:Magic Bar System
It takes a percentage? That's a lot of thinking perhaps. Really, it is exactly the same as an MP based system, but with relative instead of absolute values. You could do exactly the same thing with MP, and just reduce the casting costs. Perhaps reducing the casting costs could be made a support ability? Otherwise you're stuck at full cost, but can use an extra/more support abilites.


Yeah it is pretty close to the MP system (but my CAL system wasn't). The difference is is that our magic bar automatically regenerates, and magic bar restoring items will not be as easy as buying an 'Ether' for a meager 300GP at the item shop. You are right, the percentages will take a lot of thinking, but I think its more interesting than having a static number like "requires 20 MP to cast". Also did you read that percentages get a little lower as XP level rises? :)


Balthazar wrote:Protect
Why not? But don't overdo it. Concentration should still be risky.


I agree with you here, but remember that if you have one character concentrate and other protect, then you are using two attack turns, which I think is a big risk itself.


Balthazar wrote:The End!
That's all my thoughts. Man you guys type a lot.:


Look who's talking. :) I am impressed at your tenacity to read this entire thread and then to even make your own lengthy post about it. :approve: goes out to you!

PS: I am posting this at 5:52AM after realizing that I am more interested in continue to read my linux game programming text than falling asleep. I'm so messed up. :eyespin:
User avatar
Biohazard
Former Staff
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:03 pm
Contact:

Postby Biohazard » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:42 pm

Heh i havnt slept in more than 24h so dont mind garbage :)

The idea behind the magic power system is that it is being recharged after each battle, unlike MP. Also ( in my opinion ) there should be no item to restore MP.

The advantage of this one is taktik. I'm sure a player will think twice before casting a KICKASS spell if it makes his mage generally nearly useless ( since it drains nearly all magic power ). So a player might choose to use 3 different medium attack skills to apply on the elemental weakness of the monsters...

So the only way of recovering Magic Power would be to go into REST / Concentrate mode wich leaves the character very vunerable. Like threefold damage.

I think that system will work pretty well...

As the level of the mage advances the Magic Power used for a spell is reduced because he becomes more confortable casting it. Also *very* low level spells ( not more like a lil fizzle ) may becomme innate at a point. So he can just like... throw it out of his arms without thinking about it or concentrating about it :)

And party-buff spells ( protect, haste and the likes ) should always consume the same amount of Magic Power because they do not loose in usefulness...

I think all in all this system is pretty intelligent and good, it prevents overuse of strong spells and also adds taktikt to the battle.

----

About charge / cool down times...
The game system will be active time battle not turn based, so seconds work very well. You can think about it like calling the guardian forces in FF8 , just a little shorter time maybe.
Active time battle means that the time a character needs to get his turn is decided by his haste value, then the seconds count down till someone reaches his turn, he executes it and the battle continues, and the next one will be in row ( so it could be that a very very fast character gets 2 turns in the time a slow one gets one... )

If the time needed for cool down after using a skill is risened each time you use the skill it prevents over abuse of a single skill. Wich is very good. I've seen countless of games where the battle starts, you just use your kickass skill a few times and run around to encounter the next boring fight.... i would like to prevent that, and this would be one possibility...

Return to “Ideas and Game Features”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest