character classes or jobs

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Biohazard
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character classes or jobs

Postby Biohazard » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:47 pm

This is another important thing. What did you people had in mind for character classes and/or jobs?

Would it just be Melee / Mage or like
Swordfighter, Axecarrier, Bowman and the likes

And for the mages, would you just prefer "Mage" who can learn every spells or under categories, like White mage ( spezializing on healing and against undead magic ) black mage ( attack magic ) and the likes?

We could also add basic classes with development capabilities, but that might get too heavy... ( like in ragnarok online ).

And we should discuss party management. Fixed party or ability to change members?

And the world map too, will there be vehicles and/or planes later on? :approve:
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Postby Roots » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:11 pm

I didn't want any strict job or character class system in place. I want to leave that open so we can do whatever we want with the characters. Instead of having strict white mages/black mages, we just only allow each character to learn a limited selection of the total skills/magic that is available in the game. I do have a character design in mind who is not really a fighter, not really a mage....but this character gets a :approve: from me. I usually don't like 'odd' characters either (Gau from FFVI), but this particular character isn't as odd as that, just a little different. :eyebrow:


I want the ability to change party members (you can switch them in battle remember?). I think it makes the game much more fun this way.


As for the world map, I haven't given a single thought to that yet. Maybe there will be vehicles (there will most definitely be ships), maybe not. We'll have to wait and see, but if we ever get to that bridge we will cross it (program the vehicle ability into the game) when we get there.
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Postby Balthazar » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:31 pm

I would like to see original characters instead of falling into sterotypes. Yes, I know that there should be some "traditional" elements present, lest people playing go wtf! :argue:

As far as Gau goes however, personally I never used him because I couldn't bother to ever learn all his good rages. However, this is the kind of originality I like. However, Gau was further complicated by his limited depth as a character.

Now Sabin on the other hand, was a cool character, with a unique ability (blitz). And swingin' Setzer :approve: had a neat one, even if it was limited use (slots). Now, I don't want an FFVI ripoff, but I would like to see some original characters and abilitites.
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Postby Roots » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:51 pm

I agree with Tim. Original characters and less stereotypes get a big :approve: from me. I didn't entirely like Gau in FFVI either, because it was so tedious learning all his rages and then the only way to change his rage mid-battle was to let him expire and revive him.


While we are on the subject of characters, I would like to see 4 characters max in a battle and 8 total characters in the game. FFVI had so many wonderful characters and developed them all so well, but I don't think we can handle that many. Character design and development is something that takes a lot of work. With having 4 characters in battle and 8 characters all together, with the battle swapping ability that means there are a total of 8_C_4 = 8! / (4! x (8 - 4)!) = 70 different combinations of characters in battle. I think that's a nice big number don't you? :D
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Postby Balthazar » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:54 pm

:approve:
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Postby Biohazard » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:00 pm

Well we also must decide if we can switch the leading character.
I dont really care. At times it would be cool, than again it might do problems on boss fights in conversations, or him randomly appearing when he feels like to solve someting in a dungeon... hum...
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Postby Balthazar » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:02 pm

Maybe in boss fights, but usually you can work something into the story that required a character to be in your party.

As far as "showing up in dungeons" FFX got around this by the fact that you always travel with the whole party (which is why you can swap mid battle). It's just that only three can be in battle at a time.
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Postby Biohazard » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:10 pm

Yeah , thats a good idea. On the map you see your main character ( claudius ) walking around and when it goes to battle the crew you had last time will automatically come up...

By the way... i like neat battle intro screens... maybe we could also make a nice text appear and fading away ...

I would like to see the screen getting gradiently filled with one color ( white or black, more likyl withe ) then while filling a great battle bgm wih a good intro part starts and something like "Random encounter!" or "Fight!!" is written on the screen fading away. It has to go off fast tho, you wouldnt want to spend 5 seconds of your life just to notice that you are getting attacked :approve:
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Postby Balthazar » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:19 pm

I think the fact that it is a fight is fairly obvious, and text would be unneccesary.
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Postby Biohazard » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:53 pm

:huh: Yeah, it is, but i think it could look neat, hehe :D
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Postby Balthazar » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:24 pm

I just picture it as more of a fighting game thing than an RPG thing. It kind of "breaks the fourth wall" as it were.
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Postby Roots » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:53 pm

Balthazar wrote:Maybe in boss fights, but usually you can work something into the story that required a character to be in your party.

As far as "showing up in dungeons" FFX got around this by the fact that you always travel with the whole party (which is why you can swap mid battle). It's just that only three can be in battle at a time.


Yeah I think that's the best plan for us to take. And since we do the FFX style character swapping that means that at the beginning of the battle we could just show a dialogue if necessary and after they are done talking automatically switch them out. Although personally I was never a fan of dialogues in battle. :eyebrow: They are appropriate and work well every now and then, but I don't want to something that is too common in the game.

Balthazar wrote:I just picture it as more of a fighting game thing than an RPG thing. It kind of "breaks the fourth wall" as it were.


I agree. Even if it looks 'cool' to some people at first, I think it will quickly become annoying. Sorry Felix but I don't like the battle intro text idea at all.
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Postby gorzuate » Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:05 am

definitely need to figure out some way to change the characters around
Last edited by gorzuate on Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NightSlave » Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:01 am

Hrm; instead of an intro screen to the fight, why don't we just have our characters draw their weapons? E.g., we can do special animation to have the swordsman draw the sword, the bowman string the bow, the thief draw his knives, whatever. (yeah, I know those are stereotypical characters, but hey!)

However, I would really appreciate having the characters with fixed general classes. It would probably also be imperative for storyline to have such and such a person be fixed as a mage, so if for some reason a party member gets kidnapped by the Black Order to use in evil experiments of magery, the party isn't like "WTF?! Why the hell did they pick the hack and basher for mage experiments!? !@%#'s!!!"

Also, as a side note...

how about one of the abilities (or class ability?) to be summoning animals? I guess that's not TOO original... but we could do some really cool animations for it... (*looks foreward to setting a falcon on fire to send at the enemies...*)
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Postby Roots » Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:10 am

NightSlave wrote:Hrm; instead of an intro screen to the fight, why don't we just have our characters draw their weapons? E.g., we can do special animation to have the swordsman draw the sword, the bowman string the bow, the thief draw his knives, whatever. (yeah, I know those are stereotypical characters, but hey!)


Hey, that sounds like a good idea to me! I can just imagine Claudius unsheathing his sword and going into total bad-ass mode! :bow: haha :D


NightSlave wrote:how about one of the abilities (or class ability?) to be summoning animals? I guess that's not TOO original... but we could do some really cool animations for it... (*looks foreward to setting a falcon on fire to send at the enemies...*)


Zero originality points, but it could definitely look sweet. Instead of having it as a seperate skill though, I say we just make it a spell and have certain mages that can cast summoning magic. :approve:
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Postby Balthazar » Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:46 pm

Response

NightSlave wrote:Hrm; instead of an intro screen to the fight, why don't we just have our characters draw their weapons? E.g., we can do special animation to have the swordsman draw the sword, the bowman string the bow, the thief draw his knives, whatever. (yeah, I know those are stereotypical characters, but hey!)


It's not quite as cool when it's done with sprites. However, I think if done properly, we could pull it off.

NightSlave wrote:However, I would really appreciate having the characters with fixed general classes.


I would also like this, if only for the simplicity of whatever tech tree structure we use. I think a Sphere Grid style of abilitites would be a little much. :eyespin:

NightSlave wrote:"WTF?! Why the hell did they pick the hack and basher for mage experiments!? !@%#'s!!!"


Because, they are expendable, like little experimental hamsters. :devil:

Classes
While I would like to see original characters, you can generally group them into four groups.

Casters - Cast magical spells (both offensive and defensive), summon creatures, generally physically weaker. Examples: mages, summoners

Warriors - Limited magic, but are physcially strong. Have a variety of melee/weapon techniques. Examples: Barabrians, berserkers, knights

Agiles - "Light" armour classes, who are defensive by being hard to hit, and do medium damage. Examples: fencers, archers, rogues

Hybrids - A mix of the above three. Generally takes a handicap in one in order to gain benefits to another. Examples: Edge from FFIV (agile ninja with some magic), clerics (limited to light/white magics, but often have decent physical attacks)

Personally, I find agiles and hybrids the most fun, and that's also where a lot of the orginality comes into play (probably why I play a Shaman in World of Warcraft). Obviously, it's tough to get through without using either casters or warriors, so I'm sure we will have some. I don't think we should try to bend over backwards and try to uniquely name them. Between D&D, and all the Tactics games out there, I don't think we have a chance of coming up with a new one. :(
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Postby Roots » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:57 pm

Instead of just statically saying 'this character is this class' and 'that character is that class', why don't we just throw out this whole idea of classes and let a character's abilities be determined by their skill set? I just don't like this whole idea of labeling characters into classes, because then it restricts our freedom to give them any skills we want. Now, I'm not proposing that we just take a character and randomly throw a bunch of skills into their skill set because that wouldn't be very consistent and it would go together well (at least in my opinion). We can use classes as 'guidelines' rather than set restrictions. This way we can have a medium-class warrior like Claudius who can also dab into a few healing spells and support magic (like Paladin Cecil in FFIV).

What do you guys think of my 'virtual classes' idea? This way we have freedom to customize characters and make them unique enough to give them their own identity. Of course I don't want to make every character completely unique, and indeed maybe there will be lots of skill overlaps for certain characters, but I think we should have at least 4 distinct 'virtual classes'.
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uhhh...I said that.

Postby Balthazar » Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:37 am

That would be option number four, hybrid. :P
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Postby Kyolux » Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:35 pm

I'm positive on Roots idea, wich is similar to the hybrid Balthazar mentionned. Characters should be more free of being in a specific class and just be able to do whatever they feel like doing. Just limiting them on what kind of weapon they use is enough I think, they can learn skills based on their weapon I suppose and skills more magical not weapon related.

But weapon wise, do you plan on making unique weapon sets for every characters, wich means two characters can't use the same weapon, or the other way around?

And as far as team member switching, how do you plan on distributing xp points?
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Postby Roots » Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:03 am

Kyolux wrote:I'm positive on Roots idea, wich is similar to the hybrid Balthazar mentionned. Characters should be more free of being in a specific class and just be able to do whatever they feel like doing. Just limiting them on what kind of weapon they use is enough I think, they can learn skills based on their weapon I suppose and skills more magical not weapon related.

But weapon wise, do you plan on making unique weapon sets for every characters, wich means two characters can't use the same weapon, or the other way around?

And as far as team member switching, how do you plan on distributing xp points?


Glad you feel the same way Kyolux. :approve:

We haven't gone into too much discussion about weapons yet. I'm not entirely for unique weapons for every character, but I'm not entirely against it either. Of course not every character will be able to use every weapons (ie Claudius will be restricted to swords), but I think we may have some weapon classes that are shared between more than one character. It depends on what type of characters we bring into the game later down the road, so I don't think we need to make a decision about it now.

As for distributing XP points.... :eyespin:. Jury is still kinda out on that one. We've talked about it but haven't really come to a firm decision yet. I don't want to have characterst that are not in battle get no XP, because then it usually creates a scenario where:

1) The player uses only their 4 favorite characters for the battle and the rest are just along for the ride.

2) The player tries to constantly swap characters in battle so everyone gets the XP like in FFX. (with our system though, this won't be as big of a problem since swaps are limited).

Both of these are generally BAD things. We don't want the player to ignore characters or constantly feel like they need to swap out, because that is, as Tim would say, 'grinding' :heh:. I think we are headed towards giving non-active members in battle partial experience (observation grants experience too), though the amount hasn't been set yet. While some may complain that it is 'unrealistic' :rolleyes: to give XP to characters who don't participate in battle, its a game and sometimes you need to sacrifice realism to get rid of the annoying/tedious things.

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