Just maybe the enviroment might have some role!

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Burnsaber
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Just maybe the enviroment might have some role!

Postby Burnsaber » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:12 am

In all 2D RPG:s i`ve ever played the enviroment hasn`t mattered a lot during the battle. It just, like stood there and had no role in anything, besides looking pretty.

Alexander just made a nice suggestion in the "elements"- thread. I put it above;
Hello, I am new to this forum and having read most (so forgive me if i am repeating anything) of the Elements thread, and being a Black Mage at heart, I have a fairly humble idea that would be simple yet provide a bit of variation to the game.

Suppose that we are using an 8 element system that is either paired or not.  In an elemental system of this kind, monsters usually have a type(s) of element(s) that they are strong or weak against.  My thought is that environment could have something to do with damage as well.  For example...

-No matter what type of monster you are fighting, a fire spell or ability used in a desert is enhanced (damage-wise) by the natural heat of the desert (and if you are having day and night, deserts get really cold at night, so that bonus would go away at night and possibly be reversed).

-Additionally, a wind spell would be more effective in an open field or a desert than it would in a forest or a dungeon.

-Earth would be more effective on a mountain but less effective in the desert where the ground is not solid.

-Blizzard would do better in snow or freezing conditions, but less in the desert.

-Thunder/Lightning would be more effective if fighting a monster in water (remember that it would be more realistic if thunder affected any party members standing in the same water).

-Etc. Etc. Etc.

These modifiers would probably be simple to implement if attached to the battle maps, though I am not a programmer, so maybe not.

Con - This would call for a variety of locations and a great supply of battle maps.

Pro - More strategy for mages

I figure these modifiers would be somewhere in the area of plus-or-minus 5-20% depending on the environment's potency and would stack with the monster's strengths and weaknesses.

(another idea not related to topic)


Just maybe the enviroment could matter a bit more? This would help to take away the "slash & hack through numbers of meaningless opponents while on the world map" -aspect in many rpg´s. Suggesting the player to change his stragedies in new enviroment.

I thought that Alexanders idea was so out-of-the-box (in a good way, of course) that it could be discussed in another thread.

EDIT: I`m back from school and can write more.

Roots worte in the "elements"-thread this.
Yeah I think we've touched on the "environmental bonuses" thing before. It wouldn't be too hard to implement in the code, but my primary concern with this is the player knowing what enviornmental changes are in effect. I hate making the player play the game of "guess what the developer is thinking". I would want some way to communicate that there is a fire bonus, an earth impedement, etc. Maybe we can pop up little icons on the corner of the map when a change takes place, and keep the environmental status icons stored in the main menu.


Just a suggestion, but maybe there could be "enviroment" part in the in-game-menu (you know, where you equip items and stuff). Click it and it will tell the enviromental rules. If you click while you`re in town for example it would give a pop-up a message, something like this.

Town Area: no special rules


But for example, in desert it could tell:

Desert: 1)Heat:Fire-based attacks do X% more damage
                     2)Fatique: All characters get "slow" after X battle rounds


And whenever you go to an new area the game will warn you that the enviroment has changed. But i think that these effects should be kept small in number. Having ~10 modifiers for each enviroment  would make  it IMHO too hard to remember and harder to balance. My "gut" feel is that around 3 would be the right number.

Also one thing that could make the enviroment matter more is if some of the summons (if the game will support them) would be enviroment based.You could for example summon "Erum, the sand giant" only in deserts. I might have suggested something like this before, don`t remember for sure.

Then the "enviroment" button would show something like this:
Desert: 1)Heat:Fire-based attacks do X% more damage
                     2)Fatique: All characters get "slow" after X battle rounds
Special Summons; Emus, the Sand Giant   MP;X
Last edited by Burnsaber on Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BigPapaN0z
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Postby BigPapaN0z » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:05 am

Personally, I have to give this a huge  :approve: .  This is something that is subtle, yet would add a great deal of strategy to our game.  I think that would be yet one more step to making this game really stand out among the crowd.
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Alexander
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Postby Alexander » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:27 pm

First off, thank you for your kind responses.

I think that it would be good to have some method of the player knowing effects and i like the idea of summoning special monsters in certain areas :approve: .  I also like the idea of having fatigue if you stay in the desert too long, maybe an illness if you stay in the cold too long, etc.

One thing that I would assume though is that in addition to Fire-based attacks doing more damage, wind would cause more damage, ice would do less because of the heat and earth would do less because sand isn't solid.

I would like to see each environment have different effects (all based on realistic principles of course) on several of the elements.

Desert: 1)Heat:Fire-based attacks do X% more damage
                    2)Fatique: All characters get "slow" after X battle rounds


So, my suggestion is that we use a system like Burn suggested, but instead of saying how much each element is affected we say something like this...

Desert: 1)Heat: Fire +, Wind +, Ice -, Earth -
           2)Fatigue: Characters gradually lose speed (*VERY slowly* or something like that)

Mountain: 1)Snow: Ice +, Earth +, Thunder -
              2)Cold: Characters may become sick (condition that causes them to be surprised in 25% of battles, or possibility to lose an action 5% of the time [sneezing], or simply a "poison" that lasts for the duration of the next battle round, or something of that nature)

Cathedral: 1)Blessed: Light +, Dark -, Players are immune to curse (or something)

This way it gives the player a sense of what effects heat, snow, etc. cause, removing the "guess what the developers were thinking" aspect, without going out of character to explain our reasoning.

Again, thank you for your kind response to my idea!
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Postby Roots » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:55 am

So basically you are saying allow the environments to effect both elemental damage types and status effects, right? That's fine with me (since we were discussing integrating elemental damage and status effects together anyway). But again, I have a strong concern on communicating this information to the player. Lets take your cathedral example. What if its a run-down cathedral? Do I still get a bonus to light magic? How is the player supposed to know??? I'm thinking that maybe in the bottom right corner of the screen we can pop up little icons and play a sound to indicate an environmental change. So if I walk into a catehdral, three icons could indicate light magic +, dark magic -, and immunity to curse.


I think we should only let environments effect the battle mode though, not the map exploration mode (or maybe just very rarely). If I'm trying to walk through snow and I get "too cold" after time and have to stop, rest, build a fire, etc. That's just a pain in the ass. Sure, it might be more realistic, but this is a game, and the objective of games (well, at least this game) is to be fun for the player. One of our core ideals is to remove any elements from the game that are tedious and boring. Those are my thoughts at least. :)
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Alexander
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Postby Alexander » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:45 am

I like the idea of using icons on the bottom of the screen to indicate environmental changes. :approve:  As for whether or not a derelict cathedral would have those bonuses would depend on the context; for example, a derelict cathedral could be overrun with evil, changing the descriptor to cursed and reversing the effects (light -, dark +, immunity to bless) or whatever.  You could then actually use it as an important part of the story.

I would also suggest using an "Environment" option in the menu to view the changes in addition to the icons, as Burn suggested earlier.

Just a suggestion, but maybe there could be "enviroment" part in the in-game-menu (you know, where you equip items and stuff). Click it and it will tell the enviromental rules. If you click while you`re in town for example it would give a pop-up a message, something like this.

Quote:
Town Area: no special rules


But for example, in desert it could tell:

Quote:
Desert: 1)Heat:Fire-based attacks do X% more damage
                    2)Fatique: All characters get "slow" after X battle rounds



And whenever you go to an new area the game will warn you that the enviroment has changed.


Also, I think that the idea for a cold or fatigue status is that they only affect you in battle and can be erased like any other effects, the only difference being that you get these effects from the environment.  So it's not going to require you to do anything special other than use an item as you would for any other battle status.
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return; to obtain, something of equal value must be lost.  That is Alchemy's first Law of Equivalent Exchange.



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gloomcover
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Postby gloomcover » Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:39 am

I know I rarely wander out of my artist's cave, but some of these new ideas are pretty neat.  Perhaps an early acquired magic pendant or the like could provide the information on what environment would help which magic.  I just think justifying an icon would be nice.
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Roots
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Postby Roots » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:28 am

gloomcover wrote:I know I rarely wander out of my artist's cave, but some of these new ideas are pretty neat.  Perhaps an early acquired magic pendant or the like could provide the information on what environment would help which magic.  I just think justifying an icon would be nice.


Good idea. :approve: Maybe that can be one of the gifts that Claudius gets from his family as he leaves (I know its not mentioned in the prologue, but that's okay). :) Now go back to your cave! :devil:
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