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Equipment, Magic, and other Items of Interest

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Safir-Kreuz
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Equipment, Magic, and other Items of Interest

Post by Safir-Kreuz » Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:12 am

Well, I just set down in my chair, and began to just ponder of all the ideas I have thought of for rpg mechanics. I found out that I have a lot of unique Ideas, yet most of you will not like them most likely.

I. I would want all my characters to have wallets, instead of them sharing a magical money source.

II. Items have to be equipped to the character instead of them all sharing an inventory. This means that you have to equip carrying items. Such items would include:

    A. Pouches, Side Pacs, etc. - These carrying cases can be used for misc. items. They have no added effects, come in three sizes (Each one getting heavier, more wait time, but of course more slots)

    B. Medipacs - Carrying case for medicines, vaccines, and other useful healing items. They come in three sizes, each with a different number of slots just like the Pouches and Side Pacs.

    C. Itemists/Alchemists Bags - Again like Medipacs, this one focus on particular items, in which is modular items (Items in which are made by the users, think of Rikku and her Mix Overdrive)

    Of course there would be ultimate items, like Metamedicina a orb that does 5x effects with medical items, and has no waiting time at all.


III. I would let Magic be learned differently, instead you will have a normal set of spells you can learn at a given time. The way you learn Cure is to practice using cure. (This means that Spell is already in your Magic Library, Think Elly from Xenogears and her success rate with her ether)

Then to learn other spells that are not automatically listed you have gather information about it or go to training arenas (Think Chrono Trigger when you first meet Spekkio)

IV. Weapons would have three basic attack precursors. Slash, Pierce, and Blunt damage (Swords, Arrows, and Staves) and of course the Short/Long Range tactics.

Hmm, that all I can think of for now. :)
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Re: Equipment, Magic, and other Items of Interest

Post by Roots » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:42 am

Safir-Kreuz wrote:I. I would want all my characters to have wallets, instead of them sharing a magical money source.


I don't see the point here. Why? If we do this, then how is money delegated once it's won from battle? What if I want to transfer money from character A to character B? I know that having seperate wallets is probably more realistic, but it sure as hell sounds to me like it would be less fun. In fact, it would become a pain in the ass just to manage your money and I feel it would annoy the player. One of the goals with Allacrost is to eliminate all the tedious crap with RPGs, so this sounds like it would be in direct violation of that.

But maybe you're thinking of something I'm not? :shrug: if you can convince me that this has a purpose and will enhance the player's experience, I will reconsider. :)


Safir-Kreuz wrote:II. Items have to be equipped to the character instead of them all sharing an inventory. This means that you have to equip carrying items. Such items would include:

    A. Pouches, Side Pacs, etc. - These carrying cases can be used for misc. items. They have no added effects, come in three sizes (Each one getting heavier, more wait time, but of course more slots)

    B. Medipacs - Carrying case for medicines, vaccines, and other useful healing items. They come in three sizes, each with a different number of slots just like the Pouches and Side Pacs.

    C. Itemists/Alchemists Bags - Again like Medipacs, this one focus on particular items, in which is modular items (Items in which are made by the users, think of Rikku and her Mix Overdrive)

    Of course there would be ultimate items, like Metamedicina a orb that does 5x effects with medical items, and has no waiting time at all.



I think I :approve: of this one. It will greatly increase the value the player puts on items, since now they can't use a hi-potion of phoenix down whenever they feel like it. I also feel that some characters should be able to carry more than others (maybe only some characters can upgrade their item bags).

I :disapprove: of segmenting items into three types of bags though. It just sounds like a pain. I think there should be a single item pouch and the user can place any items they want in them.

On a related note, do we want characters to be able to change weapons/armor in the midst of battle? I am thinking no. :uhoh:

Safir-Kreuz wrote:III. I would let Magic be learned differently, instead you will have a normal set of spells you can learn at a given time. The way you learn Cure is to practice using cure. (This means that Spell is already in your Magic Library, Think Elly from Xenogears and her success rate with her ether)

Then to learn other spells that are not automatically listed you have gather information about it or go to training arenas (Think Chrono Trigger when you first meet Spekkio)


Realize that when you say magic, you mean skills (which can include attack, defense, and support actions, some of which may be magical). Actually in the staff forums I made a post about this earlier last week suggesting that we let skills be learned in a variety of ways. For example, finding a secret tome, learning a skill from a retired warrior, etc. That way we can actually have some skills be learned only from side quests, which is pretty cool I think. :cool:

I have also been thinking about "a skill must be practiced before it can be learned" as you suggested. It doesn't seem to be incredibly realistic that you can just pick up a new skill in an instant. I haven't really thought of a good way to do this though....

...wait, I think I just did. :D How about this: characters can "learn" a skill instantly, but they have to practice it to "perfect" it. For example, suppose character X learns a cure spell. The first time they use it in battle, it only has 20% effectiveness. But after each time they use it (in battle only), the effectiveness increases a few % points. Eventually it gets to 100%, after which the character can use the skill at maximum effectivness forever.

Does that sound like a good idea to anyone? I like it at least. :D In the main menu the player can see how close they are to perfecting their skills, and once a battle finishes if the skill is learned then you get a message on the rewards screen about it. I really hope you guys :approve: of this, because I think I just sold myself on the concept. :angel:

Safir-Kreuz wrote:IV. Weapons would have three basic attack precursors. Slash, Pierce, and Blunt damage (Swords, Arrows, and Staves) and of course the Short/Long Range tactics.

Hmm, that all I can think of for now. :)


I think this can sort of be tied in to the elemental/status system. Just like fire monsters are weak against water, maybe some monsters are weak against pierce damage. :shrug: We still have a lot of details to work out in the element/status system though so who knows. I'm just throwing the idea out there for the moment.
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Post by Safir-Kreuz » Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:00 pm

I think I Thumbs up of this one. It will greatly increase the value the player puts on items, since now they can't use a hi-potion of phoenix down whenever they feel like it. I also feel that some characters should be able to carry more than others (maybe only some characters can upgrade their item bags).

I Disapprove of segmenting items into three types of bags though. It just sounds like a pain. I think there should be a single item pouch and the user can place any items they want in them.


lol The concept is not to be tedious, it's industrious more or less. Meaning you can carry more items into each type of carrier. Yet the added effects on the equipment will only work on the type associations. Meaning you could carry a grenade in your Medipak, but it won't be 1.5x damage.

The items are amplified if that have an association with their carrier. Meds get added effects in Medipaks, Itemist Bags work best with Alchemist mixes, while later in the game you could have an item that has no wait time to use, almost infinite slots, and amplifies every item times 4x. :)

Lol, don't mind the idea, it's just kinda FFX-2ish if you ask me.

As a far as the wallet thing, I think I like that concept because the game I had original intention with it was set in a time of debut cards :D

Lol, it's kinda rediculous when you begin to gather a large fortune. I wonder where the character put it :D.

The equipment change in battle.... I believe if that was an option you should inforce another two slot in the equipment menu.

Equip -
Character: Hydramos  HP 9999/9999 MP 999/999
Weapon: Blade Winterslay  - Added Ice/Water Damage
Armor: Miasma Cloth - Nul-fire
Helm: Lumina Cap - Nul-dark
Shield: Arctic Guard - Nul-ice
Accessory1: Seraphium Fearther - MP Regen
Accessory2: PrismaGlasses - Blind-proof

Aux. Wep: Blade Summerslay - Added Fire/Light Damage
Aux Accessory. PrismaRing - Added Blind Effect to Target

Weapons and Accessories are the only logical switches I can see. And then that would be character based. Like Claudius could do it but I doubt Laila could.

Your magic concept sounds a whole lot like mine :D I think your method though sounds great.
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Post by Jetryl » Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:44 pm

Realmz had an interesting bit with money.


Money came in several different forms.  Base coinage/gold was the _only_ useable form, for actually sitting down and buying stuff.  However, it had this one little problem, and that was that it was rather heavy.

Characters were weighed down by the gold they carried, based on their strength stats, and if they were lugging around this ridiculous pile of money, it would really inhibit them.

What realmz had to cope with this was jewels and jewelry - the former being single instances of valuable stones, the latter being, say, a ruby-encrusted relic, or crown, or somesuch thing.  You could not create jewelry, though you could reduce it into jewels (not clear if you were trading it, or breaking it, or whatever).  You could however, trade in 125 gold for one jewel, and trade one jewel for 100 gold.  You'd lose a bit in the process, but could thus realistically carry around a truly ridiculous sum of cash.


The whole idea with separating these loads around to different player characters was that each pc was very different in skills.  In that game, you could play as everything from dwarves, orcs, and hobgoblins on the strong side, or for the opposite extreme, gnomes, leprechauns, and pixies.  Pixies, for one example, could go ridiculously fast on their own, getting some 24 moves and multiple melee attacks per round, even for spellcasters, however the little blighters couldn't carry anything worth a darn.  Put some weight on them, and they'd soon be dragging along at 4 moves per turn.  An orc, on the other hand, could easily heft twice the weight, and hardly lose a single move point.

:D  I still remember the farce of running around with a pixie evoker and a leprechaun warlock in my party.  I think, combined, they had some 30hp, and some 700spell points, and that was at level 7 or so (out of a reasonable ceiling of 60-odd levels or so).  Ridiculous, but fun polarization.

----

On a more down-to-earth note, one thing you might want to deal with in allacrost might be the usual RPG cliche of people using the same currency all over the world, and players gradually (conveniently) getting access to bigger and better items as they go along - and from shops, no less.

Buying magic swords, rather than, you know, finding them as the arcane relics that they are, always seemed a bit silly to me.  Equally silly was being forced to start with pathetic equipment (stone axes?!), unless there was a darned good excuse.

The ability to buy and sell valuable jewels might be nice as well (they could also be used as alchemical/magical components).
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Post by roos » Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:09 pm

I dunno about wallets... Like Roots said, it sounds like it would be a lot of micromanagement.

As for equipping items, that only applies to battles, right? Like, you can use any item in anyone's pouch or in the "general inventory" outside of battle. In that case, it sounds like an interesting idea.

That's all I got to say for now- gotta run :)

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Post by Roots » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:54 am

We should probably start deciding on which of these ideas we want to pursue including in the game. We're reaching a point now where we're building less of a game engine, and more of an actual game finally. :) These things will have an impact on the way a couple of modes in the game work (menu mode and battle mode to be specific), and it would be nice if we had clear definitions.
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Post by Roots » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:00 pm

Crap, I read this thread and then almost forgot what I was going to add.


This goes a long with Safir's idea of swapping in/out equipment in the midst of battle. My question is, should the player be allowed the opportunity to swap before the battle begins? Because maybe you're walking around and you have a sword in your auxilary inventory that deals a lot of ice damage compared to your primary sword, and you randomly encounter foes that *look* like they might be better to take on with the ice sword. But most of the time the player would probably skip that and just go right into battle with their default equipment.


It's probably not a very good idea, but I'm throwing it out there anyway.
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Post by roos » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:37 pm

Hmmmmm... personally I'd allow them to switch their sword and maybe one other piece of equipment. Giving full customization during battle isn't really realistic and also could really make for a ton of micromanagement.

As for allowing to switch before the battle begins, if there was a way to do this in a non-intrusive way it might be nice. In other words, if you don't want to do it, you shouldn't need to hit "cancel" or anything.
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Post by Roots » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:44 pm

I agree, only swapping the weapon and accessory (as S-K pointed out) is enough. Besides, undressing out of armor and such takes a while, but swapping a staff in your hand with one strapped on your back or slipping a ring off and another on is okay. ;)


Maybe if the player hits the swap key before the first action is executed by either a character or enemy, they can switch the equipment of all of their characters. That would be unintrusive and give them enough time to make a decision I believe. :)
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Post by roos » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:56 pm

:approve: to what you said
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Post by snowboard4food » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:18 am

Hi, Im new but I had a semi good idea that I have seen in only one game before: Elder Scrolls. I think the user should have the ability to mix spells. For example maybe there could be a few different type of spell catagories such as: Effect, Burst, Power Up etc. The user should be able to combine two or more spells into one, but the more combined increases the chance of negative side effects. For example there could be a poison spell and a fire spell, when mixed together the fire damage is only 66% but there is an added poison to the spell, however the spell has a chance of failing say 5%, therefore poisoning yourself.

... Just a thought
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Post by Sylon » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:24 am

Hi snowboard4food!  For a day there I thought you might've been another spam bot!  Welcome to the land of Allacrost!
-[Sylon Shanings]-, A Servant of Allacrost.
I owe my allegiance to Roots and only Roots! Hail to the dictator!

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Post by roos » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:29 am

Yep, snowboard4food is the applicant for Lua/C++ programmer. Either that or someone wrote a really damn good bot :)
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Post by Roots » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:31 am

What are you guys talking about, I'm the biggest spam bot of these forums. Just look at my post count! :devil:



Back on topic though, I think that that spell mixing feature sounds like an interesting idea for making the game more strategic, but it comes at the cost of extra micromanagement on the cost of the player. I think that if we can modify the concept so that it doesn't become a tedious chore for the player, it might be something useful to add. I shall sit and ponder on this one. :)
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Post by snowboard4food » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:18 pm

well it would be completely optional. I mean perhaps you would even need a skill maybe to unlock the ability to mix spells. The player would certainly not have to mix spells, it would just be a great help if the player was good at it.
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Post by Roots » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:31 pm

Roots wrote:We should probably start deciding on which of these ideas we want to pursue including in the game.


Back on the topic of having item pouches (ie, you can only use items in battle that your character has "equipped"). I've been thinking about this idea a lot lately because although I really like it, it has one critical flaw. :| That flaw is that it becomes tedious to always make sure that your characters are fully equipped with items. Because I mean, if you go into a battle, and then use two potions for two different characters, after the battle is over you have to go into the main menu and equip the now empty item slots. That's boring micromanagement, and it's one of the main things we are trying to avoid in Allacrost.


But wait:!: I had an idea when I was in the shower this morning that almost completely eliminates this flaw! :think: Lets call the idea "auto item re-equipping", and here's how it works.

Lets say we equipped two potions on Claudius, and further that the party is carrying 14 potions in the inventory. Cluadius gets into a battle, and uses both of these potions. The battle then ends, and instead of leaving those item slots empty, they are automatically re-filled with two new potiosn from the inventory, so the player doesn't have to bother with it at all! :approve:

Now if he uses the last potion in a battle and there are no more in the inventory, then at the battle victory screen, we can have some kind of indicator notifying that there are no new potions and now Claudius has an empty item equip slot. :ohnoes: So then the player can go to the main menu and equip a new item if they wish. (or if we want to get really crazy, we can allow the player to open up the inventory menu right from the battle screen and re-equip him there).


Whaddya think? I think it's one of the better ideas I've had lately personally. :D I don't know why, but all my good ideas come to me in the shower. :uhoh: :heh:
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Post by Zorbfish » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:58 pm

If you ran out of equipped items during battle I think there should be the option to grab an item out of your bag. Maybe add a penalty like wait a turn before you can use it. There's nothing more frustrating then going into battle decked out in items only to burn through them and realize there's no way to heal yourself anymore. *Cough* Dragon Quest *Cough*
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Post by Roots » Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:05 pm

Hmm, that's a possibility. And yeah, I remember having that happen several times in the original Dragon Quest... :ohnoes:
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Post by roos » Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:40 pm

I like the auto-reequipping idea. :approve: Actually I've been playing Eternal Lands lately (indie MMORPG), and they have an inventory window (50 slots), but then also a window for "frequently used items" (6 slots) which is always on the side of your screen.

It's really annoying though because if I put a healing potion in one of those slots, and then use it in battle, it disappears... Then if I want to use more healing potions, I have to open the big ol' inventory window.
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