Harrvah Design

A discussion area for general design issues that staff would like detailed feedback on.

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
Jetryl
Artist
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Southern Minnesota, USA

Harrvah Design

Postby Jetryl » Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:57 am

Roots wrote:I do think though that the circular town tiles can be very well applied to the neighboring kingdom (a mountainous and forested kingdom), which I have not yet named, but has been in my head for quite some time. :) Anyway I just wanted to sketch out my thoughts about the matter. Great job Jetryl! :bow:


One thing that's basically necessary in ironing out graphics for a setting is knowing very in-depth information about that setting.


I'm starting this thread just to flesh out the design of Harrvah - things like industry, size, and even layout of the town, stuff about the culture, etc. Also, major stuff about Harrvah's relation to other countries in the world. This includes design of buildings (which is one of the few areas we have a lot done on), design of walls and fortifications, decorative motifs.

Part and parcel of this will be ironing out designs for costuming of general NPC citizens, and for weapon and armor designs. (Possibly more S-K's domain than mine).

I have a good chunk of free time now to do concept sketches, and their direct translations into sprites/map tiles. I haven't had this free time before, and probably won't have it again for some time. So now is the time - hopefully this can inspire Sylon and Safir-Kreuz to pitch in.

The goal of this thread is to finish all major content design work necessary for getting the prologue module out.
User avatar
Rain
Musician
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:43 am
Location: Granz

Re: Harrvah Design

Postby Rain » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:25 am

Jetryl wrote:I'm starting this thread just to flesh out the design of Harrvah - things like industry, size, and even layout of the town, stuff about the culture, etc. Also, major stuff about Harrvah's relation to other countries in the world. This includes design of buildings (which is one of the few areas we have a lot done on), design of walls and fortifications, decorative motifs.
To be honest, I am a bit perplexed that this thread wasn't made sooner but very happy that you have risen to the challenge Jetryl. Now that its here, I will give my two cents and not a penny more. It seems that laying out specifics of culture is a very complex thing. The nature of it is manifested in different experiences and perspectives. It is within this that I think its good that we can each as human beings and video game creators/enthusiasts contribute to this thread and add input and commentary to each area. The more we talk about this, the more complex diverse and rich inhabitants of the Allacrost world will potentially be. We can each use our sense of experience to embroaden the horizon's of the Allacrost world. Lets do this!

Jetryl wrote:I have a good chunk of free time now to do concept sketches, and their direct translations into sprites/map tiles. I haven't had this free time before, and probably won't have it again for some time. So now is the time - hopefully this can inspire Sylon and Safir-Kreuz to pitch in.
What can we do in the way of discussion to help lead you on a course to conceptualization?
'When Zeon lost his powers, he fell to Earth, and created a giant crator where he hit. His moan destroyed the mountains and the crater was buried by the debris.'

(of Zeon)

Image
User avatar
Jetryl
Artist
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Southern Minnesota, USA

Re: Harrvah Design

Postby Jetryl » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:42 am

Rain wrote:It seems that laying out specifics of culture is a very complex thing. The nature of it is manifested in different experiences and perspectives. It is within this that I think its good that we can each as human beings and video game creators/enthusiasts contribute to this thread and add input and commentary to each area. The more we talk about this, the more complex diverse and rich inhabitants of the Allacrost world will potentially be. We can each use our sense of experience to embroaden the horizon's of the Allacrost world. Lets do this!


Music being a big one of "those parts". Amongst other things, I imagine this will really stoke your imagination, there. :D


Rain wrote:
Jetryl wrote:I have a good chunk of free time now to do concept sketches, and their direct translations into sprites/map tiles. I haven't had this free time before, and probably won't have it again for some time. So now is the time - hopefully this can inspire Sylon and Safir-Kreuz to pitch in.
What can we do in the way of discussion to help lead you on a course to conceptualization?


Well, the first thing is to iron out "where Harrvah is in relation to the rest of it's world." Roots would be the authority on these.

• How big is harrvah? Is it just a single city-state with surrounding farmland? Likewise, what is it's population (not something that will determine how big the city map ends up, since every RPG game gives cities in miniature), but something that will determine what variety of things are in the first city.

• How much trade does harrvah have with neighboring countries/farmland? (I'm hoping, for interests sake, that it's no more isolated than, say, india was in ancient times - it might not have constant trade with other nations, and "trading" might be year-long caravan/sea treks to another country (e.g. huge, dangerous, non-casual, endeavours), but I hope it has at least *some* trade with other countries, to bring in major things (like silks, whatever), even if Harrvah is mostly isolated.)

• Is harrvah completely landlocked (like Iowa), landlocked but near the sea (like western pennsylvania), or having at least one distant sea port?

• What is the primary industry of Harrvah? E.g. what do the average people do?
User avatar
eleazar
Senior Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:56 pm
Location: USA

Postby eleazar » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:38 pm

I strongly agree that World-building is necessary for both story and art to create an interesting and consistent world. Cities can become background characters in an RPG. If the player is curious and asks the right questions he can piece together the story of the city.

I received the following from Roots in answer to some questions when i was signing up:
But generally speaking, I envision Harrvah as a cross between an arabic and a medival culture. I imagine it as if knights from an otherwise cultivated land came to the desert, not knowing how to meld with the climate well, and are thus slowly acclimating their society to it.


—> Other important questions to consider:
Is Havarah an ancient city in decay,
a city built by a different culture, now occupied by a stylisticly different people,
A new upstart city, where everything is being built and expanded for the first time,
a city with stark contrasts between the rich and the poor,
or a city where nearly everyone has a chance to make it,
a city at peace,
or a city at war with itself or those outside?

—> Another important question is the level of technology that will be found in the game. Or is magic present? What kind of magic: Is it limited and rare, or part of daily life?

—> Climate is also important . One of architecture's major functions is keeping people warm or cool.

—> We have the really big dogs in the short story. Are there other unusual creatures that are part of society?


As part of the general historical background, i would propose (unless it conflicts with the story) that most of the explore-able game world was part of a single empire a few hundred years ago, that disintegrated somewhat like the Roman empire did. This has several useful consequences. Most of the little kingdoms would have a similar background that would allow a common language, currency, etc. whenever the story calls for it— even if two sides are now bitter enemies with closed borders.
User avatar
Rain
Musician
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:43 am
Location: Granz

Re: Harrvah Design

Postby Rain » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:53 pm

Jetryl wrote:Music being a big one of "those parts". Amongst other things, I imagine this will really stoke your imagination, there. :D

You bet! Personally I have been recently collecting folk music from all over the world. Its good to see how much is out there. Each bit of music has the capability to describe an/ or many aspects of culture. Some regional music features more simplistic and mystifying melodies which details a life of devotion and simplicity. Some music is has greater textures and complexity and this can symbolize the era of technology and expansion. Both of these pieces of music describe different principles; different ways of thinking and going about one's business. Likewise, different pieces of music each tell specific stories about the people that live there and its a beautiful thing. That is why its kind of hard to sum up Allacrost because I am creating my own vision of these cultures with very little direction. I am hoping that it all works out in the end. :D Anyways you are absolutely right that we will all receive inspiration from more world layout brainstorming.


Now that I think about this, it will be difficult to formulate the environs of Harrvah without a more clear vision of Harrvah within the confines of the story. So my question becomes this, to what purposes will Harrvah serve within the grand scheme of Allacrost? I feel that if we can get a handle on that, it will make creation of this fictional locale a bit more cohesive.
'When Zeon lost his powers, he fell to Earth, and created a giant crator where he hit. His moan destroyed the mountains and the crater was buried by the debris.'

(of Zeon)

Image
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8662
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:31 pm

I guess I should be writing more of the story then. :angel: Actually now that I have the time, I was going to begin working on the story more (finishing chapter 1 and starting chapter 2) as my writer's inspiration comes back. Now to answer your various questions:

Jetryl wrote:Well, the first thing is to iron out "where Harrvah is in relation to the rest of it's world." Roots would be the authority on these.

• How big is harrvah? Is it just a single city-state with surrounding farmland? Likewise, what is it's population (not something that will determine how big the city map ends up, since every RPG game gives cities in miniature), but something that will determine what variety of things are in the first city.


Harrvah is a relatively new and undeveloped country. The capital city of Harrvah (located near the center of the kingdom) is the largest city with a few thousand inhabitants or so (or in RPG terms: maybe 40-50 NPCs to talk to :heh: ). The outlying towns are mostly farming villages with few inhabitants. Because the Harrvah kingdom is mostly a desert, there is not very much fertile land. There is one other large city on the western border which lies on a trade route with the neighboring kingdom to the west (has not yet been named, but its a very mountainous kingdom). I might have one other large sea port city later, but I haven't thought that far yet (the player wouldn't visit it for a while anyway).

Jetryl wrote:• How much trade does harrvah have with neighboring countries/farmland? (I'm hoping, for interests sake, that it's no more isolated than, say, india was in ancient times - it might not have constant trade with other nations, and "trading" might be year-long caravan/sea treks to another country (e.g. huge, dangerous, non-casual, endeavours), but I hope it has at least *some* trade with other countries, to bring in major things (like silks, whatever), even if Harrvah is mostly isolated.)


Harrvah only has one neighboring kingdom to its west, which it does most of its trading with. South of the kingdom are uninhabited lands, and to the east and north lies the sea. You may recall the native Muabi tribe that live in Harrvah (they lived there long before Harrvah became established). The Harrvahans and the Muabi do not have a good relationship and do not trade with each other. Often small regional conflicts break out between the two sides. Generally speaking, Harrvahans hate the Muabi and the Muabi hate the Harrvahans.

Jetryl wrote:• Is harrvah completely landlocked (like Iowa), landlocked but near the sea (like western pennsylvania), or having at least one distant sea port?


This I haven't decided. I think that for the most part the Harrvah sea borders are among high rocky cliffs, and the few spots that are suitable for a port of sea trade are occupied by the Muabi. Harrvah generally began in the western regions and has continued to expand eastward to the capital, but it has not expanded to the north, south, or east of the capital yet.

Jetryl wrote:• What is the primary industry of Harrvah? E.g. what do the average people do?


Good question. I don't have a good answer for this one, because I don't know what would be a good export/industry for a desert kingdom. The scattered villages are mostly farmers. Maybe mining might be a good trade, but I dunno. Does anyone have a good suggestion for this?



Roots wrote:But generally speaking, I envision Harrvah as a cross between an arabic and a medival culture. I imagine it as if knights from an otherwise cultivated land came to the desert, not knowing how to meld with the climate well, and are thus slowly acclimating their society to it.


This still very much holds true. I think this statement best summarizes Harrvah and its people.

eleazar wrote:—> Other important questions to consider:
Is Havarah an ancient city in decay,
a city built by a different culture, now occupied by a stylisticly different people,
A new upstart city, where everything is being built and expanded for the first time,
a city with stark contrasts between the rich and the poor,
or a city where nearly everyone has a chance to make it,
a city at peace,
or a city at war with itself or those outside?


Harrvah is a kingdom with a short history (i.e., its relatively new) that is actively developing and expanding its reach. Although the structures are not that old, Harrvah is not a financially prosperous kingdom, and thus many buildings generally look rather poor and shabbish. I don't envision any significant differences between rich and poor: its a place where everyone has to work together in order to survive and prosper. There are no internal conflicts within the kingdom, although as I said before, the Muabi remain a constant threat (but they are not at war with the Muabi). Except for the occasional Muabi raid and the dangerous creatures that inhabit the desert, Harrvah would be a rather peaceful place.

eleazar wrote:—> Another important question is the level of technology that will be found in the game. Or is magic present? What kind of magic: Is it limited and rare, or part of daily life?


Yeesh, I haven't thought this far ahead yet. :) I think magic will be introduced later in the game, as the region of the world that the game starts in is behind in technology and very few people have witnessed magic. I do want to have some sort of logical explanation for magic rather than just having it "exist". I think I might have laid out some thoughts about magic with some others in another thread, but it was very long ago.

eleazar wrote:—> Climate is also important . One of architecture's major functions is keeping people warm or cool.


Keeping them cool and safe. The desert is a harsh environment to live in. I know because I lived in one growing up. :)

eleazar wrote:—> We have the really big dogs in the short story. Are there other unusual creatures that are part of society?


Not that I have dreamed up, no. There are few creatures that could make themselves useful in such a climate. We'll probably see other creatures in society pop up in later parts of the story.

Rain wrote:So my question becomes this, to what purposes will Harrvah serve within the grand scheme of Allacrost? I feel that if we can get a handle on that, it will make creation of this fictional locale a bit more cohesive.


Well Harrvah was the first kingdom to be attacked by the army of demons, and the king was responsible with respect to his position in the world and informed the other countries of what transpired. Then of course he sent out Claudius to find the hero that legend told would be the only hope of defeating such an evil terror.

Harrvah is just a kingdom trying to make it on its own. It doesn't play much of a major focus on the story besides being the place where "it all began". In fact I don't think we'll have any particular kingdom that the story will be centered around. The story is centered around Claudius and his journey, and the various countries just happen to be a part of that journey. :cool:



Phew, you guys sure make me type a lot first thing in the morning. :eyespin: Hopefully this answers a lot of questions though. I don't want to be the sole creator of this world though, so I always welcome people's ideas and thoughts about how the world is structured. :cool:
Image
User avatar
gorzuate
Developer
Posts: 2575
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:03 am
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Contact:

Postby gorzuate » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:33 am

Roots wrote:
Jetryl wrote:• What is the primary industry of Harrvah? E.g. what do the average people do?


Good question. I don't have a good answer for this one, because I don't know what would be a good export/industry for a desert kingdom. The scattered villages are mostly farmers. Maybe mining might be a good trade, but I dunno. Does anyone have a good suggestion for this?


How about oil?
Image
User avatar
ChopperDave
Developer
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:07 pm

Postby ChopperDave » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:19 am

Or glass. Or minerals (from mining). Or rare plants or animal pelts from desert-only wildlife.
User avatar
eleazar
Senior Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:56 pm
Location: USA

Postby eleazar » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:32 am

Let's suppose the ancestors of the people of Harrvah came to their current territory fleeing overpopulation, war or genicide. They were out of options, so they settled in what seemed to be mostly empty land, at first the nomadic Muabi didn't see them as a threat, or perhaps they were occupied with hostilities in other areas.
The Harravarites started building cities and irrigation-systems — necessary for the crops, farming techniques, and concentrated populations they were used to. Farmers and nomadic herders (when the supply of water is limited) naturally come into conflict, like the cowboys and ranchers did in our recent history.

Having access to a valuable exportable resource (gold, rare spices, etc) would tend to make a few people very rich. Oil isn't very important to a pre-industrial world, and glass basically requires sand and something to burn.
Let's say by combining desert plants, and irrigated herbs they can make some potent medicines. These would give them something to trade, without making anybody rich, since the medicine would require a lot of work (lots of plants distilled down), but anybody could do it.

Perhaps a good source of metal is scarce, and stone tools are often used? Flint knives can carry a very sharp edge, but they tend to break. It makes good game-play sense to have the most feeble weapons available at your starting point.
User avatar
Rain
Musician
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:43 am
Location: Granz

Postby Rain » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:45 am

Oil seems a bit farfetched if there aren't any cars and other auxillary power sources that require fossil fuel energy...This story IS set in midieval times, right? Perhaps we can allude to a 'Passage of Silk' as a more naturalistic approach, if thats how we want to go about it. A stretch of earth that remains largely untouched to the outside world and is completely self sustaining. Harrvah can be a part of that perhaps. In their little patch of land, perhaps they sell oils, exotic cloths, special pelts of natively indigineous creatures as mentioned above.

Well Harrvah was the first kingdom to be attacked by the army of demons, and the king was responsible with respect to his position in the world and informed the other countries of what transpired. Then of course he sent out Claudius to find the hero that legend told would be the only hope of defeating such an evil terror.
I see. Just to keep going with that, why is it that the kingdom of Harrvah's paramilitary division can't hope to defeat the monsters through battle? What is it about the demon's that makes them indestructible? Is there some kind of mechanism such as ferocity or strength in numbers which makes them so tough?

Harrvah is just a kingdom trying to make it on its own. It doesn't play much of a major focus on the story besides being the place where "it all began". In fact I don't think we'll have any particular kingdom that the story will be centered around. The story is centered around Claudius and his journey, and the various countries just happen to be a part of that journey.
Okay! Good. So it is sounding as if a few of the locales will be primarily incidental. I just have a feeling that by tweaking those little details within certain parameters of culture can really warrant the game a more endearing personality in the long haul. It might be good as Jetrl suggested to start constructing a template to encompass the important cultural features of each kingdom.

I guess the next thing to ask would be how many kingdoms in Harrvah? And yes I realize I am being a nosey bastard. :devil: Just want to see where the rabbit hole leads. ;)
'When Zeon lost his powers, he fell to Earth, and created a giant crator where he hit. His moan destroyed the mountains and the crater was buried by the debris.'

(of Zeon)

Image
User avatar
Jetryl
Artist
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Southern Minnesota, USA

Postby Jetryl » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:00 am

One thought I had for harrvah is - for reasons of meta-realism, we should make the water source in the cave actually flow into the town as a river.

Why? Because irrigating crops with a well is next-to-impossible unless you can pump the water, through pipes. The did have this kind of tech (without electricity) in turn-of-the-century america, but they didn't even have this in ancient rome, and they were both rich and technologically advanced.

My thought is:
• The water springs up in the cave through some artesian pressure - a water table forms on a higher plateau behind the cave (from precipitation and snowmelt from the mountains (yes, snow forms on high enough mountains even at India's near-Egyptian lattitude - the Himalayas are full of it, and they are responsible for a huge portion of India's water), and the cave has an opening at a lower elevation than this water table - instant spring.

• The water used to take a different path out, but gradually wore its way into the new path going to Harrvah. An underwater river, which goes straight to the city. However, our friend the scorpion decided to block this new path with rubble, causing the old path to get used again (temporarily).

• In harrvah, the river's source is nestled against a rock face at one end of town (in mountainous, rocky terrain that forms a natural barrier on two sides of the castle) - a face of said plateau, although some parts of it are not easily traversible, especially those near this "niche" where the river comes out.

• Coincidentally, the castle is built around this source; the mountains give it two natural walls, and river provides a solid supply of water, which could be used to grow food during a siege (if such a thing happened). Sure, it is vulnerable to some severe engineering work in said cave, but the chance of "the enemy" knowing about that is slim, and even if they did know about that, it's still the best place to put a Castle.

This river runs though the town in stone-walled (but not floored) canals; it also feeds a water table under the city, which wells situated away from the river (but in the city) can draw from. This river then flows to the south, where farmers divert it to nourish their crops in this otherwise arid land. In many ways, it acts like the tigris/euphrates/nile river, making an otherwise uninhabitable area workable. A good ways further downstream, it hits some serious rapids/waterfalls, and only an explorer or two has trekked down there; it blocks boats from poking their nose down there without some serious portaging (why harrvah hasn't spread down there).

When the river gets blocked, it first slows, and then becomes a trickle little bigger than a garden hose. The well-water starts dropping, and the reservoir in the castle starts getting depleted.


I think this preserves all story elements, all existing "notable facts about the city", whilst allowing some realism and making the city setting more interesting. (Especially for map designers).


If roots is cool with this, the next step is breaking out the pencil and paper, and doing some sketchery of the layout of the town and surrounding area.

Rain wrote:I guess the next thing to ask would be how many kingdoms in Harrvah? And yes I realize I am being a nosey bastard. :devil: Just want to see where the rabbit hole leads. ;)


In Harrvah, or in the world around it?

I'm assuming Harrvah is just one lonely city-state, not a state consisting of multiple cities.

(Although it might be good to have one or two little outpost villages, one farming village to the south, and one "send-off" point for Claudius' sand-ship voyage.)
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8662
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:08 pm

I like your ideas for industry/trade/resources. :) I agree that oil seems a little too "high-tech" for the time period that Allacrost takes place in.

Rain wrote:I see. Just to keep going with that, why is it that the kingdom of Harrvah's paramilitary division can't hope to defeat the monsters through battle? What is it about the demon's that makes them indestructible? Is there some kind of mechanism such as ferocity or strength in numbers which makes them so tough?


The demons are not invincible, but their numbers and ferocity are overwhelming. Furthermore, they can traverse space and time through means of shadows, as that is how they carved destruction into Harrvah without being detected. How can a country hope to defend against creatures that can appear anywhere there is a shadow? (More specifically: they can only "shadow warp" when a full moon hangs high in the night sky. This hasn't been revealed in the story yet, and in fact I just thought it up right now. :D )

Rain wrote:I guess the next thing to ask would be how many kingdoms in Harrvah? And yes I realize I am being a nosey bastard. :devil: Just want to see where the rabbit hole leads. ;)


You mean how many kingdoms are in Allacrost. :) Allacrost is the name of the world in which the story takes place in, Harrvah is just a single kingdom. I don't know how many countries (not just kingdoms: I plan to have other forms of government) will be in the world, but I imagine more than a few. I think one dozen would be a good stab at the number.


Jetryl: your water source concepts sit fine with me. I think the source of water should come from the mountains of Harrvah's western neighbor. The rain water trickles down the mountain and collects and travels through an underground river, which surfaces at Harrvah's capital. The precense of the underground river is what motivates the beginning of the story, when the water supply is suddenly cut off and a scout team is sent out to investigate and free the source of blockage.


Jetryl, obviously you haven't read chapter 1 yet. :) There are multiple small villages in Harrvah, one of which is visited in chapter 1. There's also (going to be written) a large trading city on the border with Harrvah's western neighboor.
Image
User avatar
Jetryl
Artist
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Southern Minnesota, USA

Postby Jetryl » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:58 pm

Roots wrote:Jetryl, obviously you haven't read chapter 1 yet. :) There are multiple small villages in Harrvah, one of which is visited in chapter 1. There's also (going to be written) a large trading city on the border with Harrvah's western neighboor.


Except that I have - I thought that town was on the other side of the desert, the desert that separates harrvah from other countries; and hence, in a separate country. I thought that each chapter was in a different country, too (which might be a bit silly, but I was mapping the whole module idea to single chapters).

In fact I seem to remember posting about it back when you first uploaded the thing. :axe:
User avatar
eleazar
Senior Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:56 pm
Location: USA

Postby eleazar » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:54 pm

I misses this the first time through.
Jetryl wrote:One thought I had for harrvah is - for reasons of meta-realism, we should make the water source in the cave actually flow into the town as a river.

Why? Because irrigating crops with a well is next-to-impossible unless you can pump the water, through pipes. The did have this kind of tech (without electricity) in turn-of-the-century america, but they didn't even have this in ancient rome, and they were both rich and technologically advanced.

this isn't especially relevant to Allacrost's water source, but the statement that Rome-level tech isn't sufficient to irrigate from wells is just plain wrong.
Irrigation from something like wells is one of the oldest known methods. There are numerous rather simple machines that can move water from a lower level to a higher on.



Also the presence of farming villages isn't relevant to the question of weather harrvah is a single city-state or not. You always need lots of farmers to support a city. Before industrialization most of the population would be farmers.

I'm bringing up realism, or at least plausibility into the discussion, not because i think realism should ever trump the story, or gameplay, or fun, but because i think a plausible background creates a deeper more immersive experience. The reasons why they build their houses a certain way, or how they irrigate never need come up in dialog. But if it's shown plausibly in the game, it's there for the player to notice, understand, and possibly learn from, rather than the un-ponderable nature of: it looks cool- therefor it exists in game.
User avatar
Jetryl
Artist
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Southern Minnesota, USA

Postby Jetryl » Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:04 pm

eleazar wrote:I misses this the first time through.
Jetryl wrote:One thought I had for harrvah is - for reasons of meta-realism, we should make the water source in the cave actually flow into the town as a river.

Why? Because irrigating crops with a well is next-to-impossible unless you can pump the water, through pipes. The did have this kind of tech (without electricity) in turn-of-the-century america, but they didn't even have this in ancient rome, and they were both rich and technologically advanced.

this isn't especially relevant to Allacrost's water source, but the statement that Rome-level tech isn't sufficient to irrigate from wells is just plain wrong.
Irrigation from something like wells is one of the oldest known methods. There are numerous rather simple machines that can move water from a lower level to a higher on.


That link doesn't support your point; every one of those is a canal/reservoir system for moving from higher to lower ground.


Having looked into it, though, you are absolutely correct.:sad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes_screw
Takes some infrastructure to build those, but, yes, I'm clearly wrong (I thought Rome used aqueducts/reservoirs alone). And really, shame on me for not knowing better.

Here, I was making the stupid assumption that pumps couldn't possibly be made without machine tools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Tools

Thanks for correcting me. :angel:
User avatar
Rain
Musician
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:43 am
Location: Granz

Postby Rain » Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:17 pm

Roots wrote:The demons are not invincible, but their numbers and ferocity are overwhelming. Furthermore, they can traverse space and time through means of shadows, as that is how they carved destruction into Harrvah without being detected. How can a country hope to defend against creatures that can appear anywhere there is a shadow? (More specifically: they can only "shadow warp" when a full moon hangs high in the night sky. This hasn't been revealed in the story yet, and in fact I just thought it up right now. :D )
Very imaginative! Indeed that is quite a taxing adversary then. The mechanisms of it are very interesting. That sounds freaking awesome, if I can be honest. Something about the materialization of the demons reminds me vaguely of samurai folklore of old Japan. I am sure we can make the demon's appearance extremely dramatic. Good idea with that...Ooh...this has me excited. :)

Roots wrote:You mean how many kingdoms are in Allacrost. :) Allacrost is the name of the world in which the story takes place in, Harrvah is just a single kingdom. I don't know how many countries (not just kingdoms: I plan to have other forms of government) will be in the world, but I imagine more than a few. I think one dozen would be a good stab at the number.
Right, right. I meant Allacrost. :p As for 12, that sounds good for right now. I am wondering if he couldn't start developing a map, a Tolkien-esque preliminary map that displays the positioning of the different villages, mountains, rivers and so on and so forth. We can name everything and give a great detail and history to it all. (for guidance:) http://www.geocities.com/area51/7990/map2.htm

Eleazar wrote:this isn't especially relevant to Allacrost's water source, but the statement that Rome-level tech isn't sufficient to irrigate from wells is just plain wrong.
Irrigation from something like wells is one of the oldest known methods. There are numerous rather simple machines that can move water from a lower level to a higher on
We can incorporate the use of locks to cover this premise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_%28water_transport%29 Likewise..We can use watermills as well to help transport the water! Seriously watermills kick ass and can provide secondary power sources as well.
'When Zeon lost his powers, he fell to Earth, and created a giant crator where he hit. His moan destroyed the mountains and the crater was buried by the debris.'

(of Zeon)

Image
User avatar
Roots
Dictator
Posts: 8662
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:07 pm
Location: Austin TX
Contact:

Postby Roots » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:16 am

I'm glad you guys are settling a debate on medieval irrigation technology. :heh:


Just a quick note: I just remembered that I *did* give a name to the mountain kingdom. Its named "Lambdor Kingdom" (its in the prologue).
Image
User avatar
eleazar
Senior Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:56 pm
Location: USA

Postby eleazar » Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:53 pm

Rain wrote:
Eleazar wrote:this isn't especially relevant to Allacrost's water source, but the statement that Rome-level tech isn't sufficient to irrigate from wells is just plain wrong.
Irrigation from something like wells is one of the oldest known methods. There are numerous rather simple machines that can move water from a lower level to a higher on
We can incorporate the use of locks to cover this premise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_%28water_transport%29 Likewise..We can use watermills as well to help transport the water! Seriously watermills kick ass and can provide secondary power sources as well.

Um, Locks don't move water to a higher level, they simply move boats between different water levels

Also watermills are cool, but they don't transport water up— they turn water's natural motion into mechanical power to grind grain into flour, or cut timber etc.

There are wheel-like machines that can move water up. I remember reading about them, but i can't find much info on the net about them.

Something that should be noted about Qanats (underground irrigation tunnels) which i linked to as proof that you didn't need high-tech to irrigate from wells, is that they could be incorporated into gameplay as something like dungeons, or a way to cross the desert while avoiding night monsters.


And i started a thread for the map of the allacrost world.
User avatar
Rain
Musician
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:43 am
Location: Granz

Postby Rain » Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:16 pm

eleazar wrote:Um, Locks don't move water to a higher level, they simply move boats between different water levels
Well technically speaking, yes but I was simply brainstorming...if not anything literal. :) Although such mechanisms may not seem practical, similar contraptions can be devised as a means to transport water, for our purposes water and not boats. We can use our imaginations here as we must.

Also watermills are cool, but they don't transport water up— they turn water's natural motion into mechanical power to grind grain into flour, or cut timber etc.

There are wheel-like machines that can move water up. I remember reading about them, but i can't find much info on the net about them.
For the purposes of transporting water, Noria is what I meant. (couldn't remember the name of it) Thank you for providing the link. I don't think we need too much info in them. We know what they do, we know what they structurally look like, so we can make our own inferences on how they might work to suit our needs accordingly.

Something that should be noted about Qanats (underground irrigation tunnels) which i linked to as proof that you didn't need high-tech to irrigate from wells, is that they could be incorporated into gameplay as something like dungeons, or a way to cross the desert while avoiding night monsters.
Great idea!
'When Zeon lost his powers, he fell to Earth, and created a giant crator where he hit. His moan destroyed the mountains and the crater was buried by the debris.'

(of Zeon)

Image

Return to “Design”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests