Prologue item/skill/spell list brainstorming:

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Prologue item/skill/spell list brainstorming:

Postby Jetryl » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:31 pm

Since most of menu mode's remaining functionality relies on there being more content in the game, it's probably going to be dragging for a while. I can easily juggle both menu and battle, but if we've got other programmers who really want to work on it, I'll relinquish command. Doesn't bother me either way.


So, let's start making this shit. :devil: The only part that needs "skilled labor" is the graphics to represent these skills/items, and I can provide all of them.

We're brainstorming three things, here:

1] A list of items claudius will be able to pick up/buy/equip.

2] A list of techniques claudius will be able to use in battle.

3] What type of magic claudius uses in the game, and where/when he gets access to it; which might be after the prologue.


This is just a first draft, but it's about time we planned this. Anything we don't like, we can change later, and if images don't get used, they can find a place in some wesnoth UMC; I'm not worried about them getting wasted. But we need _something_ to work with.
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Re: Prologue item/skill/spell list brainstorming:

Postby Ranger M » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:55 pm

Jetryl wrote:1] A list of items claudius will be able to pick up/buy/equip.

2] A list of techniques claudius will be able to use in battle.

3] What type of magic claudius uses in the game, and where/when he gets access to it; which might be after the prologue.


My two cents:

1) unless we are planning on having many many variations of claudius's sprite done then these will mostly be better/worse versions of what he already has (leather gloves, leather boots, whatever his armour is, and swords). Also even if there will be many many variations of his sprite done (full diablo 2 style) he probably wont find anything new enough to merit a new sprite in the prologue (unless this ends up being a really short game, which would be a waste).

2) unless he has magic I'd imagine that he'd get a basic power attack, one should do at the start.

3) Umm :uhoh: fully depends on the story (which, AFIK isn't finalised yet, I've heard Roots mention a newer versiona few times), don't touch this untill it is.
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Postby Rain » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:03 pm

Right. Items for now.

Potion-restore 50 hp (Should a potion be called a potion?> Boring), cup of life (resurrect).
Shield- carven shield (wood) (Store bought), *Runalest Shield (treasure)
Hauberk- Some kind of creature fur. (taking local monsters and environment into consideration, of course. For instance, what kind of fur would grow in the desert, and what kind of creature would inhabit it?
Sword- *Runalest (a sword which grows considerably stronger during the night.) (treasure item)
Shard- Green Tourmaline ring (resist poison) (treasure item)
Arms - Iron Bracer (store bought)

I think it will be easy enough for us to start conceptualizing what kind of magics will be present in the game without having a clear concept of the story. We can start with rudimentary rpg magics and use that to serve as a template. I fail to see how planning this out is going to interfere with the story, which stands largely uncompleted at any unknown stage of development.
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Re: Prologue item/skill/spell list brainstorming:

Postby Jetryl » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:51 pm

Ranger M wrote:1) unless we are planning on having many many variations of claudius's sprite done then these will mostly be better/worse versions of what he already has (leather gloves, leather boots, whatever his armour is, and swords). Also even if there will be many many variations of his sprite done (full diablo 2 style) he probably wont find anything new enough to merit a new sprite in the prologue (unless this ends up being a really short game, which would be a waste).


It's an accepted RPG cliché/limitation, that a character can be wearing the ultimate-xyber-armor-etc, and have no changes to his sprite. People may have faulted early sprite games for this, but they're used to this by now. The solution is either to used a screwy modular sprite system, which is an enormous, logistically nightmarish project, or to not use sprites altogether. The latter is something I plan on doing for a future game I'd make, but for allacrost, let's just stick to a single sprite appearance for the character.

That said, it's also an accepted rpg limitation to limit a certain character to a certain class of weapon. In chrono trigger, chrono could only use swords (not staves, not other weapons); it's a reasonable compromise to do the same thing here. So; we can have our limitation, but also have it generally look right (although the character might be "wearing" a helmet without having it appear on his sprite).

Ranger M wrote:2) unless he has magic I'd imagine that he'd get a basic power attack, one should do at the start.


I can see a few different things; all simple "sword" techniques, which would be gained at certain levels.

• Slash (basic)
• Cleave (lower chance of hitting, rather higher (20-60%) base physical damage; useful when the enemy can be killed in one blow)
• Bash (knocks the enemy off balance, making them easier to hit, and gives them a hard time to hit you; lasts only long enough for claudius to land one strike after it, if that (but very useful with multiple characters)).
• ??? {insert fancy word like "spirit" or "chi"} strike - uses a few skill points to deliver a super-slash.

Ranger M wrote:3) Umm :uhoh: fully depends on the story (which, AFIK isn't finalised yet, I've heard Roots mention a newer version a few times), don't touch this untill it is.


Roots has released two chapters of the story, neither of which mention Claudius using explicit, external magic (tossing around fireballs and such).

I get the feeling, though, that in the latter part, claudius is intuitively using a sort of "warrior magic"; kinda like the martial arts concept of "chi"; to strengthen him as he battles to protect the king.
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Postby Roots » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:37 am

Few thoughts:

- Keep things simple. This is the beginning of the game and we don't want to throw too much at the player too fast. There's only one town and one dungeon, so we shouldn't need anything more than basic equipment, items and techniques.

- No slots/shards, we'll introduce those later.

- There's not only Claudius, but other knights with him in the dungeon. They will all need skills and equipment as well, but I recommend we just have them have the same skills and equipment as Claudius (after all, its standard issue ;)).

- Claudius does not use magic at this point in the game.
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Postby Jetryl » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:06 am

Roots wrote:Few thoughts:

- Keep things simple. This is the beginning of the game and we don't want to throw too much at the player too fast. There's only one town and one dungeon, so we shouldn't need anything more than basic equipment, items and techniques.

- No slots/shards, we'll introduce those later.

- There's not only Claudius, but other knights with him in the dungeon. They will all need skills and equipment as well, but I recommend we just have them have the same skills and equipment as Claudius (after all, its standard issue ;)).

- Claudius does not use magic at this point in the game.


:approve: Aye, aye, capn.



Idea #1:
(The whole weapon list for the prologue!)
• Iron Shortsword (starting weapon)
• Iron Broadsword
• Iron Longsword
• Iron Greatsword (greatsword is the normal term for two-handers, like claymores)

Each class (short/broad/long) would have different properties of how much damage it does, and how easy it is to hit. Short swords give a slight penalty to hit, as to greatswords, longswords give a slight bonus. Longswords/greatswords are interchangeably useful (think katana/wakisazhi), and the character might carry the 2 different types for different situations.

We leave out steel weapons in the prologue to give growing room for the future.

Idea #2:

Have a cheap/fine distinction for each of these that makes it do slightly more or less damage. E.g:
• Cheap Iron Longsword
• Fine Iron Longsword

I'm not too hot on this, but it would give a slightly greater variety.
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Postby Jetryl » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:17 am

Roots wrote:- Claudius does not use magic at this point in the game.


I think that's a good idea.

We should, though, come up with some physical techniques that use skill points.




Consumeable items:
• Health/Vitality/Life potion - comes in several varieties of size; all of these should last us the whole game; we'll either do these by a percentage restore, or a direct number of hitpoints. I think four magnitudes would suit us well.

• Skill point restoring potion - a rare item that recharges skill points. IIRC, roots has stated before that this should not be trivial to renew.

• Curative potion - relieves the player of unpleasant effects, comes in four magnitudes.
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Postby Ranger M » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:53 pm

Rain wrote:I think it will be easy enough for us to start conceptualizing what kind of magics will be present in the game without having a clear concept of the story. We can start with rudimentary rpg magics and use that to serve as a template. I fail to see how planning this out is going to interfere with the story, which stands largely uncompleted at any unknown stage of development.


I was more referring to Claudius' use of magic than magic in general (my #3 was an answer to Jetryl's #3) but this has been sorted out now (see Roots reply).

as for the other stuff, cheap/fine could work, although if a item damage system (eg, swords need repairing every now and then) is in place you could simply have them do less damage as they get more damaged (or, maybe more damage, if you use certain attacks, eg, slash, because they become more spikey which would tear more flesh with each swing, I don't know if this would actally happen but I'm throwing the idea out there)
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Postby bludlust » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:22 am

Is there any idea of balance going on in this discussion or just brainstorming names and possible purposes?
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Postby EmreBFG » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:37 am

bludlust wrote:Is there any idea of balance going on in this discussion or just brainstorming names and possible purposes?


Just brainstorming names and possible purposes at this point.
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Postby Jetryl » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:53 am

Jetryl wrote:Consumeable items:
• Health/Vitality/Life potion - comes in several varieties of size; all of these should last us the whole game; we'll either do these by a percentage restore, or a direct number of hitpoints. I think four magnitudes would suit us well.

• Skill point restoring potion - a rare item that recharges skill points. IIRC, roots has stated before that this should not be trivial to renew.

• Curative potion - relieves the player of unpleasant effects, comes in four magnitudes.


New item ideas:
• Water of Life - basically the "resurrection" juice for fallen comrades in battle. Not sure if this is a good idea to have.

• Stamina Tonic - makes the character's stamina recharge somewhat faster during battle, but only lasts for a few rounds.

Based on this:
http://www.allacrost.org/media/screensh ... en_02d.jpg

health = green
skill pts = blue (the one I already made)
cure = ???
stamina = yellow
ressurect = white

I'm working on these tonight, I'll be making both icons, and sprite versions. The icons should be used in all menus, the sprite versions should be used on the map.

EmreBFG wrote:
bludlust wrote:Is there any idea of balance going on in this discussion or just brainstorming names and possible purposes?


Just brainstorming names and possible purposes at this point.


Sortof; regarding potions, there are a few game design points that we're working under here:
1] Skill Points should not be easy to recharge during battle - this is intended as a counter to the usual "potion mobbing" that is seen in RPGs; where characters waltz into a dungeon with a whole apothecary in their pocket, and where their stock of potions-in-general is a primary factor in whether they win/lose.

2] Roots has stated that the separation and specificity of most negative-status curers in games is something that he doesn't like. In allacrost, there is a single "panacea" potion-type that removes ALL negative status effects. This comes in multiple strengths, strong effects won't get completely nullified by weaker curing potions.


As for #1, balancing it could be done by restricting the variety/availability of potions. However, I think a better way to do it, and likewise for health, would be to limit the rate at which potions can be used, and the rate at which they take effect. Or simply to limit how many can be carried at any one time. The first "solution" would cause the player to hoard these items, and possibly never use them, an effect I've seen in many games.

One interesting "justification system" would be to make the bottle a magical artifact, which converts simple water put inside it to "the magic potion", but which can't be used as a factory - if the potion is poured into something else, it will turn back into water in a very short time. Of course, we'd still have to figure out some way to cope with "dungeon-resting"; with finding some nook/cranny inside the dungeon to hide.

The point is this:
a] the presence of most potion types can always be balanced by changing how they function, so it's okay for me to go ahead and draw them.

b] we should probably keep the in-depth discussions about balance of these in another thread.

c] though we can plan some general elements of balance preemptively, we probably can't round off all the rough edges until things are seen in-game.
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Postby Roots » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:15 pm

[img:240:180]http://www.allacrost.org/staff/user/jetryl/Items/potion-icons.png[/img]

With these, I think we should do the following:

Green: health potions
Blue: skill points potions (rare items)
Red: status healing potions


I'd like for us to decide on the general names of these three potion categories so that we can name these images appropriately, stick them in svn, and define them in the Lua files. I'd also like it if we could give them somewhat original names, as "healing potion" is incredibly generic. How about:

- green = vitality potion :approve:

- blue is a tough one :( mana potion is all I can think of, but we don't speak of "mana" in Allacrost. we need a good word that describes the capability to do something, because blue restores skill points, and the characters can't do much without SP.

{alacrity, esprit, vigor} potion?

- red = potion of rejuvenation? revivify potion? curing potion? salving potion?


As for the various levels of potion, should stick with our intensity naming scheme: weaker, moderate, stronger, extreme? Or should we apply a better set of names for these intensities (which might be a good idea, seeing as we created those intensity names solely for status and elemental effects, not recovery potions)
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Postby Ranger M » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:31 pm

Roots wrote:- blue is a tough one :( mana potion is all I can think of, but we don't speak of "mana" in Allacrost. we need a good word that describes the capability to do something, because blue restores skill points, and the characters can't do much without SP.

{alacrity, esprit, vigor} potion?


My initial reaction was Will potion, then I remembered that I got that from playing Fable, but something along those lines would be good, afterall magic is often accociated with useing your will, (argh, words fail me here, but "making stuff happen because you want it to" combined with your knowlage and enough magical ability to do said action. Or at least that's my interpretation, I've always seen your force of will as playing a major role in magic)

Roots wrote:- red = potion of rejuvenation? revivify potion? curing potion? salving potion?


I vote rejuvination.

Roots wrote:As for the various levels of potion, should stick with our intensity naming scheme: weaker, moderate, stronger, extreme? Or should we apply a better set of names for these intensities (which might be a good idea, seeing as we created those intensity names solely for status and elemental effects, not recovery potions)


I'd suggest finding different names for larger glass containers, but I can't think of enough (vial, bottle ...)
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Postby Jetryl » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:08 pm

If we were to verbize the red potion... vitality -> revitalizing

Roots wrote:- blue is a tough one :( mana potion is all I can think of, but we don't speak of "mana" in Allacrost. we need a good word that describes the capability to do something, because blue restores skill points, and the characters can't do much without SP.

{alacrity, esprit, vigor} potion?


energy, clarity, power, vigor, spirit, chakra, chi,
energizing, clarifying, empowering, ?, ?, ?, ?

Roots wrote:- red = potion of rejuvenation? revivify potion? curing potion? salving potion?


salve, cure, ?, purity
salving, curative, cleansing, purifying

Roots wrote:As for the various levels of potion, should stick with our intensity naming scheme: weaker, moderate, stronger, extreme? Or should we apply a better set of names for these intensities (which might be a good idea, seeing as we created those intensity names solely for status and elemental effects, not recovery potions)


small, medium, large, enormous -or- small, medium, large, huge
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Postby turin » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:31 am

"huge potion"? "enormous potion"? :eyebrow:

The other ones are good, but those seem a bit much.

What about "bottle", "beaker", "glass", and "jug", or something like that?
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Postby Roots » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:57 am

Right now Imy votes are:

Green: Vitality
Blue: Vigor (we have a vigor actor stat BTW, which is for metaphysical attack rating...might be confusing)
Red: Rejuvenation -or- Purification, I'm torn between the two


I agree with turin that huge/enormous is a bit much. I like his idea about describing the shape of the container rather than the size. For example:

Vial of Vitality, Flask of Vitality, Gourge of Vitality, Flagon of Vitality


It also sounds more classy than saying potion potion potion everywhere. :)
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Postby rujasu » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:48 am

Roots wrote:Vial of Vitality, Flask of Vitality, Gourge of Vitality, Flagon of Vitality


It also sounds more classy than saying potion potion potion everywhere. :)


I like this, mainly because fancy words like "Vial" and "Flagon" sound cooler than, say, "Jug." :D
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Postby turin » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:52 am

rujasu wrote:I like this, mainly because fancy words like "Vial" and "Flagon" sound cooler than, say, "Jug." :D

Err, yeah. Roots's names are much better. But I gave him the idea. :angel:


Except... err... what's a "gourge"? I'd prefer "beaker" or "glass" to that one.
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Postby ChopperDave » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:52 am

One thing that worries me is the coloring. In most RPGs, red is for health and blue is for mana. In ours though, it looks like green is health and red is status curing. Is anyone else bothered that this may confuse players?
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Postby Roots » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:59 am

ChopperDave wrote:One thing that worries me is the coloring. In most RPGs, red is for health and blue is for mana. In ours though, it looks like green is health and red is status curing. Is anyone else bothered that this may confuse players?


They might be confused initially, but they'll get used to it pretty quick. I don't think we need to worry about confusing players just because our game does something slightly different than most. I'd only worry about confusing them if we weren't consistent with how we did things in the game. :) (Hint: because the HP bar in battle mode is green, the green potions heal).
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