Inventory

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wayfarer
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Inventory

Postby wayfarer » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:13 pm

Well I'm quite green here and actual I don't have the full overview how far the project has progressed.

But I got an small idea I've seen the inventory.



Who is really good though I like more visible Informations.

I would like to make something like this.

Though missing is a Shilouette of the character where the equipment could be placed in slotes.

This is just a fast sketch with the gimp and existing stuff. I quess it is possible art wise if the people around here prefer it.

So the first question I if this kind of think is even wished.
but the first and the biggest problem is the code I don't know if it would be feasible and someone is willing to do it.

The other things would be the standarts for image size presentations and items but this would be just a matter of discussion the problem with the art would be my part I quess though I made the suggestion. :huh:
Though I know the art part is feasible I don't know about the code and the overall opinion.

Hopefull this is the right part of the forum.
Last edited by wayfarer on Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Steu » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:45 pm

The top screenshot is actually from FF1.  The inventory in allacrost currently looks like Image  To change to the other style you posted would require quite an overhaul of our current system.  This is still in very extremely alpha status.
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Postby Jarks » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:51 pm

I think I understand what you're getting at, wayfarer. Sadly I dont understand the current inventory system enough to really say which I feel is better, that and I have no clue on how the programing crew does the voodoo they do, or what it would take to implement this. I think your suggestion is comfortable though, I'm used to that design and jumping into the game, I would know immediately how to control my inventory. not saying the current system is confusing, though.

one modification I would add to your idea is have say two bags you can carry, and whatever worn slots. within these bags, have a grid system that you store things in, smaller items taking up one slot, larger items taking up more room. its always bugged me having a potion and a great big ole huge axe taking up the same pack space. From a art standpoint, I think it looks better cause you can have bigger icons for the bigger pieces, makes everything look better.

just a suggestion to go along with your idea  :cool:
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Postby gorzuate » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:59 pm

I actually like wayfarer's idea. I have a feeling though that many of the FF-nerds in the group will be like " :twitch: zomg! It's not similar enough to FF so we can't do it that way!"

And to that I say Image
Image
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Postby wayfarer » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:10 pm

Yeah as one who has never played Final Fantasy but many other rpg's I'm at home with this system.

Jarks wrote:
....

one modification I would add to your idea is have say two bags you can carry, and whatever worn slots. within these bags, have a grid system that you store things in, smaller items taking up one slot, larger items taking up more room. its always bugged me having a potion and a great big ole huge axe taking up the same pack space. From a art standpoint, I think it looks better cause you can have bigger icons for the bigger pieces, makes everything look better.

just a suggestion to go along with your idea  :cool:


Well I would like this too but it would be simpler if all images have the same size and I quess code wise too.

At the moment my proposal is ugly  would actual draw a Shilouette of a character one male and one female which would be simplest solution and for the last some ornaments and decorations something for the eye but I still don't know if the code can handle this.
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Postby Steu » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:42 pm

This would be a fairly major change from my current implementation, I have no problem if that is what we decide to do.  I think this should be discussed in the Design forum, and decide what design we should use.
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Postby Jarks » Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:13 pm

wayfarer, how would you handle multiple characters under this system? would you have seperate armor/weapon/jewelry slots for each character and a universal inventory area? each party member has a unique inventory to control?
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Postby wayfarer » Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:19 pm

Jarks wrote:wayfarer, how would you handle multiple characters under this system? would you have seperate armor/weapon/jewelry slots for each character and a universal inventory area? each party member has a unique inventory to control?


Haven't thought about that problem one big inventory for all only the equip page could be changed per character though I donÄt even know how this is solved in the current system perhaps this solution can be adopted. Though I slowly think this idea isn't that good because the code in this area seems to be finished.
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Postby Steu » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:00 pm

Here's how it works under the current system.  The inventory and equip screens are completely separated a la most snes rpg's.  

In game you hit the menu button (currently 'S'), this brings up a screen showing a brief overview of you party, and a bunch of options.

Inventory - Equip - Skills - Status - Save - Exit   (Maybe more can't remember exactly)

If you select Inventory, then the overview of the party is replaced with an inventory listing, and the menu options change to:

Use - Sort - Key - Back

Use lets you use usable items like potions etc...

If you select Equip from the main menu then you would be able to equip stuff on your characters (haven't got here yet, so the design is still fairly abstract.)

This is just a brief over look at the Menu Mode.
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Postby Jarks » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:50 pm

It appears that basically its just a matter of what visual style the game is to have. The way it is currently, feels more suited to a controller (snes type deal) and will maintain a nostalgic look. wayfarer's suggestion lends itself to later mouse based UI's (everquest comes to mind). personally, on a pc, with a lot of keys and mouse at my disposal, I would prefer not to have to access menu's from menus. just have one key bound to open inventory, party status, skills, options...etc., pretty hotkey icons to click, mouse targeting. But, if a nostalgic feel is the target, the current system is the way to go.
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Postby Steu » Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:22 am

It's easy enough to implement in the current system that say if the user presses 'S' then we go to the root of the main menu, but if the user presses 'I' or whatever key is bound to inventory, it would open straight up to the inventory screen.  But I believe there is no mouse cursor to use right now, so mouse targeting would be tough without a cursor  :heh:
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Postby Roots » Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:06 pm

I moved this thread to Design as Steu suggested, because it fits better there.



I actually like wayfarer's design, despite what Phil might have predicted. :angel: Here are some points to keep in mind and some thoughts of what has been said so far:

> There is *no* mouse support in Allacrost. Thus a click-and-drop style that wayfarer did wouldn't work very well I think. :|

> I don't totally like the idea of hotkeys for inventory/etc. Remember we have joystick/gamepad support too, and I don't want to force users to have to alternate between their gamepad and the keyboard (I don't want to set too high of a limit on the number of gamepad buttons Allacrost needs). Maybe we could have them in there as an option, but even if we do that's a very low priority issue right now, so it won't be done for a long while.

> Along with the item bags/inventory slots, that has already been discussed in other threads (see the Ideas and Features forum). But yeah, we are planning to do something like you suggested.


In summary, I think sticking with the old RPG menu-style is the best bet for us right now, but I am totally open to ideas for making a more innovative, intuitive, and interesting interface to it. :)
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Postby Steu » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:28 pm

Roots wrote:> I don't totally like the idea of hotkeys for inventory/etc. Remember we have joystick/gamepad support too, and I don't want to force users to have to alternate between their gamepad and the keyboard (I don't want to set too high of a limit on the number of gamepad buttons Allacrost needs). Maybe we could have them in there as an option, but even if we do that's a very low priority issue right now, so it won't be done for a long while.


The hotkeys would never be required, you could still access the inventory through the traditional menu, and we could also add the possibility to bind a gamepad button to the inventory hotkey.  These would be optional, but yeah they are a low priority.
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Postby wayfarer » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:49 pm

Well the mouse support is a quite big stumbling block.

Though I think the system could be kept the player could just switch between the items in an inventory (for all characters) with the keybord (I will really miss my mouse  :cry: ). Than the player can choose to equip (or anything else) than the items would appear in the slot or would replace an already used item in the same category.

I'm trying to make some concepts at the moment though this is quite vague.

Has someone around here any access to cartouches?
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Postby Ranger M » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:52 pm

it sounds like this is going to be similar the the diablo game's menu, is this right (trying to get a general idea here)

as for item placement in the inventory, I'd like to make a suggestion. If this ends up using the same system as the diablo series (you put it in if there are enough squares next to each other in the right shape) then please make it so that you can rotate the items, I cannot tell you how many times I had enough space, but not the right shape. It's so annoying :bash:
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Postby Steu » Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:07 pm

Well it won't be like Diablo, here's why one of our requirements is to be able to use without a mouse (there is no mouse cursor), and able to use with a gamepad.  So the inventory style will need to be more console-like.
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Postby Jetryl » Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:41 pm

Jarks wrote:It appears that basically its just a matter of what visual style the game is to have. The way it is currently, feels more suited to a controller (snes type deal) and will maintain a nostalgic look. wayfarer's suggestion lends itself to later mouse based UI's (everquest comes to mind). personally, on a pc, with a lot of keys and mouse at my disposal, I would prefer not to have to access menu's from menus. just have one key bound to open inventory, party status, skills, options...etc., pretty hotkey icons to click, mouse targeting. But, if a nostalgic feel is the target, the current system is the way to go.


nostalgic is not the right word to use here, because there were plenty of mouse-based games kicking around in the late 80's on a mac.  Chumps like me grew up playing games like taskmaker, or exile, or dark castle, at the same time that others were playing on the NES/SNES.  In fact, I've never owned a videogame console in my life - games on a personal computer were all I played - I do not want to get into an argument between consoles and pcs, I simply ask that for the sake of argument, you accept that pcs offered a equally valid form of videogaming; that is, that you don't discredit my argument because "not as many people played them" or somesuch thing.

One of the subtlest things about a computer-based interface, especially that of a mac where support for this is native and easy to implement, is the use of drag-and-drop.  With drag and drop, transferring items between different collections becomes extremely easy, in fact operations on items can become quite easy as well.  Need to dice a piece of bread into slices?  Just drag the knife onto the bread.


Many times, I find console interfaces to be extremely aggravating, because I have to iterate through a list to a specific target, which in the case of an inventory or a list of abilities, might be some 20 items deep.  Starting from the moment the selection screen comes up, this takes several times as much time as just clicking on the item - in fact, that's what I'm thinking the whole time - "Why can't I just click on this &%$ thing!?!"  The same applies to targeting specific people with spells.

The other problem is that you have to memorize what different keys do, and you have to discover what they do by experimentation; which is fine enough for a simple set of movement and attack keys, but different sets of keys for some 5 or 6 dialogues is bogus.  The upper limit of scaling on this is games like "Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past", wherein there are very few interface windows that come up in the game, and wherein your actions within them are non-destructive (you cannot accidentally use that one über-expensive item).

Steu wrote:Well it won't be like Diablo, here's why one of our requirements is to be able to use without a mouse (there is no mouse cursor), and able to use with a gamepad.  So the inventory style will need to be more console-like.


To mandate complete functionality with a keyboard:  good.
To disallow using the mouse if others are dying to do so:  really bad.
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Postby Jarks » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:19 pm

drag and drop...yeah.

but I think having a mouse and also not being able to use it, would be a waste of a perfectly good mouse. I dig the drag and droppage!

wouldn't stop me from playin it tho  :hack:
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Postby gorzuate » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:20 am

I don't see why compatibility for a gamepad means not having support for a mouse. :huh: The two aren't even related to each other!

It would and should be entirely feasible to have both (although I wouldn't want to be the programmer coding it :eyespin: :heh: )
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Postby Roots » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:37 am

A gamepad is nothing more than a bunch of buttons and a d-pad. It can be treated exactly as if all the commands were coming from the keyboard.


Supporting the mouse would be a bitch and make processing user input much more difficult than it is now (it is very easy and wonderful now). You'd have to treat the mouse different in every game mode. In map mode if the user clicks on a tile I have to figure out:

> What tile did the user click on?
> Is the tile next to the player? Should I move the player to this tile?
> Is there an object occupying this tile? Does the player want to interact with this object?

Of course I'm not saying it's impossible. It's totally possible, it's just a lot more work for us. I can't really design a simple I/O wrapper that decomposes all user input commands into primitive operations like the current GameInput class does. The game is open source, so if someone feels the dire need to add mouse support, they are free to do so. But right now, I personally have no intention to even consider adding mouse support. There are far, far more important programming tasks that need to be completed first.
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