Death

A discussion area for general design issues that staff would like detailed feedback on.

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gorzuate
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Postby gorzuate » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:52 pm

I think also what Burnsaber was trying to say was to be careful about rewards from battle if a reward earned without retrying the battle could be used, say, against a boss and without which (by retrying the battle and therefore not getting this specific reward) the player could not beat the boss. It has nothing to do with a player's stupidity or impatience.

However Burnsaber, I don't think we'll be awarding necessary and essential items in this manner.
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Roots
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Postby Roots » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:56 pm

Burnsaber wrote:Oh, I should have been more clearer. The penalty seems to be a bit-behind-the-scenes kind of thing. If I retry a battle once and get 100 gold, how could I know that I should have got 150 gold? The game shouldn't give a illusion that evreything is fine when it actually isn't. Maybe the "loot" screen could have text like "gold cut by X% for Y retries" or something like that.


Oh yeah, totally. I had that detail planned from the very beginning. The player needs to see that they didn't earn the full rewards, otherwise they won't have any sense of penalty. :)
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Loodwig
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Postby Loodwig » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:00 pm

Here's a thought: If you retry the battle with the exact same stats as you started (maybe with a slight penalty) because "oh crap, I made a stupid mistake in combat), then I don't see a reason why your xp or gold would be shrunk afterwards. Realistically, the issue is to diminish the reward for retrying endlessly, thus preventing the need to have to relaod (as I'm understanding it). But we're trying to counterbalance abuse as well, so I respect the penalty.

I think it'd be better to make the battle slightly harder, but you start with all your items back (like say a 10% across the board cut in hp, or the monster gets a free attack). It's from this point that you would get to reload, eventually making the battle downright impossible. Now, this isn't an issue, assuming you can save right where you died, and come back at your last save point "Zelda Style" to crawl your way back and try again. But we don't want to be cutting rewards, as this can lead to a very unballanced scenario down the line.

Consider the following:
you have a hard boss that may take the average party more than one attempt to defeat (XeonSaga III hard).

If you offset the beating by giving the boss more xp (or gp) then, you critially award those that found the battle effortless because they spend the last decade leveling up.

If cripple the party as a result, then this boss becomes the point at which many players have to "restart" and try the game again.

If you allow unlimited attempts without penalty, you make the battles about luck instead of strategy, and sooner or later the weakest of parties is going to score a lucky blow, and reap the rewards.

Somewhat of a catch-22.

hmmm
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visage
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Postby visage » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:53 pm

Loodwig wrote:Here's a thought: If you retry the battle with the exact same stats as you started (maybe with a slight penalty) because "oh crap, I made a stupid mistake in combat), then I don't see a reason why your xp or gold would be shrunk afterwards. Realistically, the issue is to diminish the reward for retrying endlessly, thus preventing the need to have to relaod (as I'm understanding it). But we're trying to counterbalance abuse as well, so I respect the penalty.

I think it'd be better to make the battle slightly harder, but you start with all your items back (like say a 10% across the board cut in hp, or the monster gets a free attack). It's from this point that you would get to reload, eventually making the battle downright impossible. Now, this isn't an issue, assuming you can save right where you died, and come back at your last save point "Zelda Style" to crawl your way back and try again. But we don't want to be cutting rewards, as this can lead to a very unballanced scenario down the line.

Consider the following:
you have a hard boss that may take the average party more than one attempt to defeat (XeonSaga III hard).

If you offset the beating by giving the boss more xp (or gp) then, you critially award those that found the battle effortless because they spend the last decade leveling up.

If cripple the party as a result, then this boss becomes the point at which many players have to "restart" and try the game again.

If you allow unlimited attempts without penalty, you make the battles about luck instead of strategy, and sooner or later the weakest of parties is going to score a lucky blow, and reap the rewards.

Somewhat of a catch-22.

hmmm


Ahh, but you forget that monsters level up at the same speed as you, so your last decade of leveling up only made the monster more difficult (or, appropriately difficult). So, yeah!
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Loodwig
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Postby Loodwig » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:05 pm

That sounds problematic to me :(
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gorzuate
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Postby gorzuate » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:33 am

Loodwig wrote:That sounds problematic to me :(


lol
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