Desert tiles

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Jarks
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Desert tiles

Postby Jarks » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:40 pm

Hi guys, been awhile! I came across some old images in my hard drive and remembered this project, a lot has changed since I've seen it. Its looking great!

Anyways, it sparked my interest and I don't know if it will be of any help, but I quickly modified the tiles in the demo with the desert textures I created a while back, plus a few modifications to the existing tiles. I was going to make a house but I decided to see if there was actually interest before going through and doing all that.

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Last edited by Jarks on Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jetryl
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Postby Jetryl » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:08 pm

Probably the most useful thing you could do would be to post your desert ground tiles; and to post them in a game-useable format, rather than as part of a mockup.
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Jarks
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Postby Jarks » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:48 pm

here is a .png file with the desert tiles, and some grass tiles I did earlier as well..

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rujasu
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Postby rujasu » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:34 pm

Speaking of houses, we don't exactly have game support for houses at this point... do we know where that fits into our plans? Can we squeeze it into the upcoming demo or is that an 0.3-type feature?
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Roots
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Postby Roots » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:19 am

Wow, I really love those desert ground tiles. That is absolutely awesome :approve:

rujasu wrote:Speaking of houses, we don't exactly have game support for houses at this point... do we know where that fits into our plans? Can we squeeze it into the upcoming demo or is that an 0.3-type feature?


What you mean is we don't have support for going inside houses (which we call a map context switch). We probably can not get it ready for the next demo, because it needs both map and map editor support. Right now no one is working on map mode because I'm busy with the video engine and Drakkoon is who knows where. :(
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Postby KingHanco » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:08 am

How about some dead trees? Living trees can't live without water. :huh:
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Roots
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Postby Roots » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:16 am

I think some dead/dried up trees and other desert vegetation would be wonderful to have. I lived in the desert most of my life, so I definitely know that tall tress with dark green leaves do not fit. Here are some good sources for this:

http://www.cabobob.com/03Ctvna/03bldrs531x408.jpg
http://www.izix.com/personal/photos/sou ... alRock.jpg
http://www.ged.rwth-aachen.de/Ww/projec ... actus1.jpg
http://www.confluence.org/mx/all/n26w10 ... %63%31.jpg
http://www.confluence.org/mx/all/n26w10 ... %31%30.jpg
http://www.lakelachamber.org/points/Saddle-s.jpg


Yes, the desert is full of pointy vegetation :D On a hike once I accidentally sat on a small cactus, that wasn't very fun :heh:
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Jarks
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what would be useful?

Postby Jarks » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:49 am

What kind of tiles would be useful to be made? desert stuff? indoor stuff? buildings? walls? I got nothing to do tomorrow and doing some tiles sounds actually fun..
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Re: what would be useful?

Postby Roots » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:47 am

Jarks wrote:What kind of tiles would be useful to be made? desert stuff? indoor stuff? buildings? walls? I got nothing to do tomorrow and doing some tiles sounds actually fun..


I'd make some desert vegetation for starters (see my last post above). That could really help add to the environment. We already sort of have the outdoors of the house conceptualized at least, Jetryl can point you to more on that. Harrvah is also surrounded by a large town wall, which would be usseful to have.
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Jarks
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walls

Postby Jarks » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:19 pm

started sketching out some walls..

Image

is this what you had in mind? also, what kind of gates or entrance points are involved? there need to be any special transitions/angles, or just a square wall around the town?
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Postby Roots » Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:01 pm

Yeah that's looking good so far. I imagined the wall to be a lot larger though (that wall you have there is barely the height of an adult human). Square transition tiles should be enough; no need to make anything elaborately fancy (and if we need to do so later, we can always add to the wall tiles). There's one large entrance to the town in the front section of the wall, but go ahead and use your imagination to make a gate/whatever you feel is appropriate. :)
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Postby Jetryl » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:10 am

What roots said.

By and large there's some cool stuff here. :approve: My first suggestion would be to change the color scheme - the current color scheme is bizarrely, unnaturally yellow. Try doing something more like the following:

Image



Just to clarify that I do know what the heck I'm talking about, I made the following desert tiles for wesnoth:
Image


Deserts are not yellow, they're tan.
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Postby rujasu » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:06 am

I may be wrong here, but the color scheme in Jarks' tileset looks okay to me; it looks more like "desert at high noon," whereas Jetryl's example looks more like "desert at 4:30 PM." However, I haven't looked at enough deserts lately to be any kind of authority on that.
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Roots
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Postby Roots » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:13 am

rujasu wrote:I may be wrong here, but the color scheme in Jarks' tileset looks okay to me; it looks more like "desert at high noon," whereas Jetryl's example looks more like "desert at 4:30 PM." However, I haven't looked at enough deserts lately to be any kind of authority on that.


I'm kind of torn. I think the yellow desert looks great and there's nothing horribly wrong with it, but I do get Jetryl's point about it being "too yellow". Maybe desaturate the tiles a bit so the colors are not so intense. Here's a series of reference desert photos, and you can see some are more yellow and some are more tan:

http://www.phototravels.net/namibia/nam ... -vast.html


BTW: I think it would really awesome if we could have hills and valleys (dunes, essentially) with these sand tiles. A set of tiles that we can use to create variable sized dunes would be excellent and really add to the depth of the scene here. :approve:
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Postby Rain » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:32 am

I think the colouring of Jarks submission is great. Its an eye pleasing bright-yellow. I think my issue with the sand is the texturing. I think Jetryl's texturing is great. If we could somehow incorporate those 2 schemes, I think it might work pretty well...if its possible of course. :)
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Jarks
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Jetryl's sand is top notch

Postby Jarks » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:41 am

I fought the patterns in the sand, a 32 X 32 tile is incredibly difficult in my opinion, that sand in wesnoth looks great. How did you get that kind of texture with that size of tile?

I agree that the yellow is too much...but I did do it on purpose. I thought the de-saturated look was cheesy, like it was trying to mimic realism against the sprites and painterly buildings, so I thought some color would pop it out a bit, but I got a little too much there
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Postby Jetryl » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:48 pm

Rain wrote:I think the colouring of Jarks submission is great. Its an eye pleasing bright-yellow. I think my issue with the sand is the texturing. I think Jetryl's texturing is great. If we could somehow incorporate those 2 schemes, I think it might work pretty well...if its possible of course. :)


I disagree, and so did the dudes at Squaresoft. It looks painful to my eye rather than pleasing.

http://www.qtours.com/images/qcaliforni ... flower.JPG
http://www.snifflegear.com/Photos/Iraqi ... rt%202.jpg

You can find plenty of "yellow desert" images online, but most of those are deliberately oversaturated because saturation is (at first glance) more pleasing to the human eye, but very rapidly becomes grating. Don't trust me, trust Squaresoft on this - using that level of yellow breaks the color harmonics. It's like playing out of tune - you can bend the rules, like jazz does, but you can't break 'em. And if you're gonna bend the rules, know what you're doing when you do it.

:shrug: I mean, that's just how it is.



Anyways, Jarks - carry on with what you're working on, I can make it fit in. No worries. :approve:
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Rain
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Postby Rain » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:14 pm

You mean, the color is too sharp? Hmmm, if thats the case, then I understand what you mean. The brighter color does look a bit catchier at first glance though. You are probably right about that lustre becoming tiresome as time goes on.

See this is why I am a composer and not a visual artist. :D

Reality aside, I think the allacrost palette is appearing as a whole to be quite bright and colourful. Wouldn't it make sense to make the sand reflect the natural colors of Allacrost? The sand shouldn't be too dull. I guess like most things, this is a question of balance.
'When Zeon lost his powers, he fell to Earth, and created a giant crator where he hit. His moan destroyed the mountains and the crater was buried by the debris.'

(of Zeon)

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Jetryl
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Postby Jetryl » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:59 am

Rain wrote:Reality aside, I think the allacrost palette is appearing as a whole to be quite bright and colourful. Wouldn't it make sense to make the sand reflect the natural colors of Allacrost? The sand shouldn't be too dull. I guess like most things, this is a question of balance.


Musical Analogy:
Loud sections of a song are more exciting than soft sections. Wouldn't it make sense to make the whole song uniformly loud?

Likewise, tritones, minor chords, and dissonance all sound unpleasant. Wouldn't it make sense to never use these, ever?


These make sense at first glance, too; but I think (with my humble knowledge of music) that these are pretty bogus.






If you'll excuse me for pulling some tao-like philosophical statement out of thin air: The spirit of each element can not merely change, but transform when they are combined with each other. Combining things that are individually unpleasant can create something pleasant, and vice versa. Building purely out of elements which have the property you seek is not guaranteed to further that goal - it might actually go in the reverse direction. In fact, it's generally not the ultimately best way to build what you're working towards.

It's interesting that this applies not just to drawing and music, but also to as wide-ranging of subjects as cooking and chemistry. For example; the best conductor is not a pure mix of the element that conducts best (gold), but is instead superconductors which are a mixture of several elements, some of which don't conduct well at all on their own. Likewise, salt, which is excellent when added to something, is a little gross when eaten pure, in any significant quantity. Some goes for pure cayenne pepper, pure vinegar, pure butter.

I'm glad that the best solutions to things aren't always an application of the old maxim of brute force, that being "if it doesn't work, you're simply not applying enough". I'm glad that the most pleasant creations aren't simply those with the highest number of pleasant elements jammed into them. It makes the world far more interesting, and also allows for the existence of a thing called _finesse, which could not exist if brute force were the solution to every problem.
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Rain
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Postby Rain » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:48 am

Jetryl, you're a convincing fellow. Out of boredom, I really really wanted to argue on this but I really have nothing to argue. BLEH!

Jetryl wrote:Musical Analogy:
Loud sections of a song are more exciting than soft sections. Wouldn't it make sense to make the whole song uniformly loud?


Ha. Softer sections can be FAR more exciting than louder sections. ;) I disagree but I get the point.

I understand the idea of contrast and what it can add to a piece of art though that kind of information may be arbitrary to this discussion on the topic of and color. I mean, the bottom line is how the sand will look and what function it will serve.

All in all, I trust you are going to make it look good, bottom line.

:approve:

On the subject of consonance vs. dissonance...dissonance is sometimes more effective when it is used sparingly, for music or visuals. I believe that more dissonant color tones would better serve a dark and evil lair, rather than the sands of allacrost. If dissonance is used to much, it loses its meaning. Its like the boy who cried wolf, or something. (Well not at all actually but I think you know what I mean.)

Then again and from an aesthetic standpoint, you are very right about the sand needing to be neutral. I mean, since it is a piece of tile that the player will be exposed to constantly, for likely long periods of time, a lighter shade would be MUCH better in the long run. Good call there.
'When Zeon lost his powers, he fell to Earth, and created a giant crator where he hit. His moan destroyed the mountains and the crater was buried by the debris.'

(of Zeon)

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